English /
CMS20070910MeetingLog
ira 10 19:10:10 Zapata welcome everybody to the meeting on the Sao Paulo CMS proposal... ira 10 19:10:11 toya the agenda for the meeting? ira 10 19:10:22 Zapata I've compiled an agenda... hang on... ira 10 19:10:32 toya ok ira 10 19:10:53 Zapata http://techmeet.sarava.org/English/CMS20060910MeetingAgenda ira 10 19:11:06 Zapata he goal of this meeting will be to: ira 10 19:11:06 Zapata * Rally people behind the project ira 10 19:11:06 Zapata * Establish some structure for the project ira 10 19:11:06 Zapata * Set the implementation of the project in motion by defining and assigning the first tasks ira 10 19:11:20 Zapata Agenda: ira 10 19:11:20 Zapata 1. Introduction ira 10 19:11:20 Zapata 2. A clarification on the proposal, including a definition of the goal and opportunity for Q&A ira 10 19:11:20 Zapata 3. Definig the first tasks: organization, CMS survey ira 10 19:11:21 Zapata 4. Structuring the CMS requirements lists ira 10 19:11:23 Zapata 5. Establish CMS review procedure ira 10 19:11:25 Zapata 6. CMS brainstorm ira 10 19:11:31 Zapata 7. CMS review assignments ira 10 19:11:33 Zapata 8. Mailing list, Wiki ira 10 19:11:35 Zapata 9. Next meeting ira 10 19:12:05 Zapata I would appreciate it if someone else would volunteer to moderate... ira 10 19:12:24 ryan what the hell, i'll do it ira 10 19:12:43 Zapata well ira 10 19:13:08 Zapata I figured you and I were gonna do most of the talking... but if you want to, it's fine by me ira 10 19:13:21 ryan well, anyone else? otherwise i'll do it ira 10 19:13:56 ryan its ok, i know how to moderate & talk at the same time ira 10 19:14:10 Zapata ok ira 10 19:14:17 ryan ok lets start with one-sentence introductions ira 10 19:14:39 ryan i'll go in alphabetical order in the channel, get your intro ready so you just have to hit enter, please ira 10 19:14:42 ryan i'll start ira 10 19:15:27 ryan i'm ryan -- i work with sf indymedia for 6 years now, also global tech, also linefeed (parallel group). i've worked with sf-active and i was in sao paulo for techmeet, i'm all for combining forces and easing the burden on people doing stuff now ira 10 19:15:31 ryan end ira 10 19:15:42 ryan Zapata: you're next in reverse alphabetical ira 10 19:16:10 Zapata I'm Zapata aka Max. I'm a member of indymedia netherlands / contribute to the mir CMS / involve myself with various other informal indymedia stuff ira 10 19:16:16 ryan zak? ira 10 19:16:24 Zapata end ira 10 19:16:33 zak i'm zak, part of imc uk for about 3 years, and one of the traven (mir hosting server) admins ira 10 19:16:37 <ryan> txopi? ira 10 19:16:52 txopi i'm txopi. i collaborate in basque imc. we use kosmos ira 10 19:16:58 ryan toya? ira 10 19:17:03 toya i am toya from imc-brasil was in the techmeet ira 10 19:17:04 txopi sorry, we use mir at kosmos ira 10 19:17:16 ryan sandoz? ira 10 19:17:31 sandoz i am jan based in Berlin. New to indymedia, but have friends there. I am interested in the indymedia 2.0 process have some visions about. ira 10 19:17:36 ryan RobBoston? ira 10 19:17:38 RobBoston Rob from Boston, MA, US, previously with Boston Indymedia for 3 years as web admin among several other internal roles. ira 10 19:17:41 ryan rhatto? ira 10 19:17:50 rhatto i'm rhatto, doing tech stuff for brasil.indy since 2001 and host a few other imcs; end ira 10 19:18:00 ryan rebe| ira 10 19:18:01 rebe| I'm rebe| from denmark. Been acitve for little more than a year. Not very technical though. We're currently looking for a cms to replace our current oscailt 2.0. I'm interested in the development and therefore a spectator here. [end] ira 10 19:18:08 ryan nah ira 10 19:18:19 nah i'm nah from imc-brasil ira 10 19:18:25 ryan maxigas_ ira 10 19:18:36 ryan maxigas_ is idle as hell ira 10 19:18:39 ryan kwadronaut? ira 10 19:19:04 ryan as is kwadronaut ira 10 19:19:06 ryan Kvn? ira 10 19:19:08 Kvn Kevin.. admin with worcester indymedia 2+ years -100% Non-techie -- really glad to see CMS changes coming ira 10 19:19:13 ryan init ira 10 19:19:24 init hi, I'm init, I'm from Berlin, IMC-Germany, I worked on "mir" from the beginning, did css and html, config-stuff, since I'm no java-coder, right now I work with rails a lot, volunteer at a local not-for-profit-provider in Berlin, called so36.net ira 10 19:19:27 ryan gus ira 10 19:19:30 * gus -> imc-brasil/collective sao paulo, was also at techmeet 2006. ira 10 19:19:37 ryan gdm ira 10 19:19:52 ryan idle, elisa? ira 10 19:20:08 ryan idle, ekes? ira 10 19:20:30 ryan idle, Devin? ira 10 19:20:38 toya ping ekes ira 10 19:20:42 * toya pinging thsi ppl ira 10 19:21:22 ryan hmm ok clara is idle, i think. clara? ira 10 19:21:22 Devin devin -- in Chapel hill now, have helped with tech in Richmond VA and ira 10 19:21:22 Devin tampa bay, am a professional programmer, interested in code. have worked with ira 10 19:21:23 Devin dadaIMC, started to get into sf-active but haven't really groked it yet; ira 10 19:21:41 ryan chrisc? ira 10 19:21:56 ryan boud ira 10 19:22:03 boud boud - imc poland volunteer, our local city Torun is about to organise as a local city imc - we expect to use samizdat http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Devel/SamizdatEngine (ruby based inymedia CMS which has optional wiki for contributors) - the idea of joining forces sounds good to me. An "alternative" de-facto-indymedia in poland uses drupal. end. ira 10 19:22:07 ryan bertagaz ira 10 19:22:10 * bertagaz from nantes, france, involved in some indy tech working groups and his local IMC (which is trying to switch from this awfull spip-indy ;]) </end> ira 10 19:22:17 ryan angdraug ira 10 19:22:19 angdraug I'm angdraug: author of Samizdat CMS (Ruby), Debian developer, tech for IMC Belarus (running Samizdat), now in Sheffield UK. end. ira 10 19:22:25 ryan Alster ira 10 19:22:41 * boud away - back in 5 minutes ira 10 19:22:55 ryan Alster! ira 10 19:23:13 bertagaz tsss ira 10 19:23:16 bertagaz hi angdraug :] ira 10 19:23:22 ryan A-Kaser ira 10 19:23:25 angdraug bertagaz: hi! ira 10 19:23:48 ryan idle, simon seems idle... ira 10 19:23:54 ryan PseudoPunk ira 10 19:23:56 A-Kaser ? ira 10 19:23:59 * alex (name@localhost) gehitu da #cms ira 10 19:24:06 PseudoPunk I'm Bart from Belgium and sf-active coder. end ira 10 19:24:12 ryan A-Kaser, give an intro ira 10 19:24:13 alex argh, that's what i missed.. ira 10 19:24:20 Alster i'm alster, take part in a couple IMC tech working groups, am located in hamburg, germany. more about me at http://sarai.indymedia.org/~alster ira 10 19:24:30 ryan pietro ira 10 19:24:43 ryan pietro seems idle, how about patrick? ira 10 19:24:44 A-Kaser I'm Francois from Belgium, I have some servers used in mirror ira 10 19:24:52 ryan i think its too early for patrick, 1pm ira 10 19:24:58 Zapata lol ira 10 19:25:00 toya lol ira 10 19:25:36 ryan occam? ira 10 19:26:02 ryan ok how about mtoups? ira 10 19:26:26 ryan mat? ira 10 19:26:45 ryan ian ira 10 19:26:46 ryan ..? ira 10 19:26:55 Zapata alex ira 10 19:26:56 * alex is from imc germany. i do tech stuff, some Mir-documentations and use Mir a lot :) ira 10 19:26:56 ryan alex: you want to give an intro?? ira 10 19:27:13 alex i tried pushing indymedia 2.0 at PGA ira 10 19:27:13 ian hi ira 10 19:27:16 alex done ira 10 19:27:17 ryan ok fine, thats it ira 10 19:27:26 ryan oh alright, ian - give an intro ira 10 19:27:35 ian hi, i'm ian with san francisco imc ira 10 19:27:46 ian i do some tech stuff, but would mostly help with design and content stuff ira 10 19:27:50 ian indymedia 2.0++++ ira 10 19:27:52 ian done ira 10 19:28:13 ryan ok, so first we have clarification of the proposal ira 10 19:28:16 ryan zapata, you want to do this? ira 10 19:28:28 ryan just talk and signify that you're done with "end" ira 10 19:28:36 ryan then we can do some kind of ordered Q&A if necessary ira 10 19:28:38 ryan Zapata: go ira 10 19:28:47 * boud back ira 10 19:29:46 Zapata so... ira 10 19:30:22 Zapata during the techmeet in Sao Paulo, a group of indymedia-affiliated techies have discussed a proposal on the future of indymedia CMSes ira 10 19:30:59 Zapata given the structural understaffedness of the various codebases ira 10 19:31:30 Zapata as well as the fact that, feature-wise, the world outside is way ahead of us (see for instance sites such as youtube) ira 10 19:32:06 Zapata the idea is to, instead of developing multiple indymedia-specific CMSes, to look for a single non-indymedia CMS and focus on customizing it for indymedia ira 10 19:32:35 Zapata a more detailed proposal text is available on http://techmeet.sarava.org/English/CMSProposal ira 10 19:32:48 Zapata I presume most people here have read it... ira 10 19:33:26 Devin ... ira 10 19:33:34 Zapata I've already asked several people not present in sao paulo what their opinion was... I would also like to give the opportunity to people here to vent their opinions ira 10 19:33:49 Zapata ask questions... ira 10 19:33:53 Zapata and so on ira 10 19:33:54 Zapata end ira 10 19:34:13 ryan ok so just do some like /me wants to talk ira 10 19:34:18 ryan and i'll keep an order of speakers ira 10 19:34:43 ryan are there specific questions related to clarifying what is in the CMSProposal? ira 10 19:34:50 ryan i'll give a few minutes for ppl to read/ask ira 10 19:35:03 * txopi wants to talk ira 10 19:35:37 ryan ok txpoi.. ira 10 19:35:40 txopi i think this is a very good proposal ira 10 19:36:21 txopi i wonder if we have clear that althought we choose an cms out side the customization work probably will be quite big ira 10 19:36:28 * elijah (elijah@localhost) gehitu da #cms ira 10 19:37:14 txopi and when new versions and features are added tho the codebase, the mantain work will be similar to the work we/you are doing to mantain this indymedia's cms ira 10 19:37:14 * boud has a question ira 10 19:37:15 txopi end ira 10 19:37:24 * Zapata would like to respond to txopi ira 10 19:37:30 ryan Zapata, respond, then boud ira 10 19:37:51 Zapata the amount of customization work will depend a lot on the exact CMS we would choose ira 10 19:38:09 Zapata but naturally, we won't find a CMS that will be fit for all CMSes straight out of the box ira 10 19:38:43 Zapata one part of the proposal is also that we would join forces... i.e. developers / admins /templaters from different codebases would work together on 1 project ira 10 19:38:44 * skep (skep@localhost) gehitu da #cms ira 10 19:38:58 Zapata and generally, the real benefits from this proposal will be reaped in the future, not in the present ira 10 19:39:24 Zapata the maintainenance work in the future will, hopefully, be a lot less than what we do now: right now we also must maintain basic CMS functionality, not just indymedia-specific functionality ira 10 19:39:24 Zapata end ira 10 19:39:56 * bertagaz raises ira 10 19:40:05 ryan boud ira 10 19:40:22 * init raises too ira 10 19:40:28 boud question: Road map 1. 2nd paragraph: i'm wondering how strict "non-indymedia" CMS means - does this mean all CMSes other than mir/sf-active/dada ? In other words, will we exclude mir/sf-active/dada from the list of candidate CMSes, or will we exclude all CMSes which are listed on http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Devel ? end ira 10 19:40:52 ryan mm i can answer ira 10 19:40:54 * Zapata would like to respond to that (unless ryan wnats to do it) ira 10 19:41:04 * Zapata says go ahead... :-) ira 10 19:41:07 ryan i dont think it necessarily excludes indymedia CMS'es ira 10 19:41:19 ryan i was going to put sf-active on the list to evaluate just for due course ira 10 19:41:37 ryan maybe we'll do that with the others but a key requirement is a wide developer base ira 10 19:41:53 ryan which imc cms'es are kind of lacking, but we can discuss ira 10 19:41:58 ryan zapata, right? ira 10 19:42:03 ryan end ira 10 19:42:09 * Zapata raises in response ira 10 19:42:19 ryan go on zapata, then bertagaz ira 10 19:42:58 Zapata I'm a bit more pessimistic, I think indymedia CMSes really lack the vitality of a sustainable project ira 10 19:43:08 Zapata but it's ok to consider them anyway I guess ira 10 19:43:09 Zapata end ira 10 19:43:11 Devin are we waiting or did i get disconnected? ira 10 19:43:29 ryan bertagaz ira 10 19:43:32 ryan Devin: waiting? ira 10 19:43:36 bertagaz do you know what is the opinion of sf-active people about that? Would they join this initiative? Keep developping sf-active? I'm not sure they are here ATM... ira 10 19:44:11 bertagaz oh ira 10 19:44:12 bertagaz end ira 10 19:44:13 bertagaz :] ira 10 19:44:14 PseudoPunk bertagaz: if the cms proposal comes through I jump on the train for sure. ira 10 19:44:34 * boud s/train/bandwagon/ ;) ira 10 19:44:38 ryan same here, i'm willing to help get the cms proposal activated also ira 10 19:44:54 bertagaz ok so now I know who is sf-active people ;] ira 10 19:45:01 ryan ok end of speaker's list. anyone else have questions/comments specifically towards clarifying the proposal? ira 10 19:45:11 Zapata init! ira 10 19:45:22 toya :39 * init raises too ira 10 19:45:22 init I think the that it will be very hard to find a maching existing CMS, we would have to adapt our "fork" each time the original code changes. We have accumulated a lot of knowledge about what it is exactly that WE need. There is a lot of mistakes, we would not do again. So maybe it'll be less work to start a new codebase from scratch, using existing frameworks, like Zope or Ruby-on-Rails. But the evaluation will show that. Apart from that I would like to take a step back ira 10 19:45:38 ryan oops, sorry ira 10 19:45:39 ryan thanks toya ira 10 19:45:45 * Zapata raises in response ira 10 19:45:50 ryan zapata then ira 10 19:45:55 init but that is more stuff a wiki-diskussion ira 10 19:46:21 init questions like what IS our Date, what jobs do the server nodes in the imc-network do. ira 10 19:46:46 init like posting, moderation, storage, backup, db-backup, mirror.... ira 10 19:47:05 init more like imc like a protokoll, not just one software. ira 10 19:47:21 init shout have prepared a text on that , sorry... end ira 10 19:47:31 Zapata ok ira 10 19:47:43 Zapata as I asid before, a perfect match will be impossible to find ira 10 19:48:03 Zapata but as close a match as possible will be very useful I hope ira 10 19:48:24 * zak raises in response ira 10 19:48:31 Zapata I wouldn't think we should fork the cms, we should find a CMS where customizations are easily made and are maintainable across different versions of the CMS ira 10 19:48:54 Zapata the knowledge we have accumulated we can employ both in the customizations but also in the original CMS, if applicable: nothing stops us from contributing to the CMS ira 10 19:49:07 Devin (got it now in bulk - thanks) ira 10 19:49:16 Zapata zope (I'm less familiar with ruby) might be an excellent candidate to start from... ira 10 19:49:22 Zapata it's definitely a candidate for me ira 10 19:49:46 Zapata on the general imc-network issue, I agree there's a lot of reflection and re-organization that might be done, but... ira 10 19:49:51 Devin ruby is fun ira 10 19:50:01 Zapata the future of indymedia will include the need for a CMS ira 10 19:50:30 Zapata so we'll have to cover that ira 10 19:50:32 Zapata and the rest should be discussed in a different meeting I'd say ira 10 19:50:34 Zapata end ira 10 19:50:39 ryan zak ira 10 19:50:47 zak i think a lot of this will become clearer once we actually begin matching the features of existing CMSes to our requirements. ira 10 19:50:49 zak but i'm not sure what we need is *that* out of the ordinary ira 10 19:51:05 * toya raises her hand ira 10 19:51:37 zak i'd hope that any patching won't be that widescale, and that a lot of it will be just about providing an easy way to get the site structures we want, plus a few security measures like removing ip logging ira 10 19:51:42 zak end ira 10 19:51:45 ryan toya ira 10 19:52:11 * nessie (nessie@xxx.xxx) gehitu da #cms ira 10 19:52:12 * Devin raise hand ira 10 19:52:33 * angdraug raises ira 10 19:52:36 toya not sure if we should start to discuss thigns related with how w ewill do it (zope, ruby etc) righ tnow or not ira 10 19:52:39 * clara has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) ira 10 19:53:07 toya end ira 10 19:53:17 ryan devin ira 10 19:54:27 Devin from a coding perspective, it is (almost) always the case ira 10 19:54:51 Devin that after several years, there is alot one would do differently, a fresh start can often be a good thing ira 10 19:55:17 Devin I don't think a switch is really throwing away -- we keep the experience, and gain the help / interaction with wider community. ira 10 19:55:34 Devin basically speaking in favor, but want to be sure and honor the work of many in past ira 10 19:55:34 Devin end ira 10 19:55:42 ryan angdraug ira 10 19:55:49 angdraug we need to add open-minded developer community to the list of requirements ira 10 19:55:55 angdraug I'm concerned about being carried away by the tide of a project with wide developer base and goals different from ours ira 10 19:55:59 angdraug I'm also concerned about technical goodies getting ahead of social features of our software ira 10 19:56:00 angdraug end ira 10 19:56:10 * elijah raises hand ira 10 19:56:11 * Zapata raises in response ira 10 19:56:11 ryan ah yeah, i would add that in... that one thing i want to watch for ira 10 19:56:23 ryan are projects which are obvious attempts at making a company ira 10 19:56:37 ryan even if its a volunteer project now ira 10 19:56:59 ryan which means we have to scope out the core developers for these projects ira 10 19:57:05 ryan Zapata, and then elijah ira 10 19:57:29 * fernao (fernao@localhost) gehitu da #cms ira 10 19:57:34 Zapata the character of the developer base for the CMS should imo certainly be part of a requirement... ira 10 19:57:46 Zapata but a discussion of the requirements list will be a later item in this meeting ira 10 19:57:50 PseudoPunk ls ira 10 19:57:59 Zapata the idea behind this proposal isn't about technical goodies ira 10 19:58:07 nessie hi. I'm nessie from SF-IMC. I just tuned in to see what you all were up to. Don't mind me. I'm just observing. ira 10 19:58:14 Zapata it's about sustainable development, maintenance and support for our CMS needs ira 10 19:58:48 Zapata one of the reuslts of the low sustainability of the current efforts is, imo, that we do not have a lot of time to add features ira 10 19:59:17 Zapata and are thus lagging behind commercial efforts such as youtube ira 10 19:59:23 * bunny (bunny@localhost) gehitu da #cms ira 10 19:59:40 Zapata which is certainly a reason why a lot of our target audience uses youtube to post their activism videos ira 10 19:59:48 Zapata end ira 10 19:59:53 * RobBoston raises in response ira 10 20:00:01 ryan ok elijah, then RobBoston ira 10 20:00:01 elijah on the issue of starting from scratch: ira 10 20:00:02 elijah (1) many experience programmer will tell you that ira 10 20:00:02 elijah rewriting their code was the best thing that ever ira 10 20:00:02 elijah happened. the second time you actually understand the ira 10 20:00:02 elijah problem, and are not weighed down by past mistakes. ira 10 20:00:03 elijah (2) when considering what to do, it should be based on the ira 10 20:00:06 elijah list of needs, not based on preconceptions on what will be ira 10 20:00:08 elijah easiest. ira 10 20:00:30 elijah (3) i do not like the idea of saying "we know what we want, but we don't have the labor, so we will use something crappy" ira 10 20:00:41 * Zapata raises in response ira 10 20:00:47 elijah i would rather identify what we want, then say: ok, how can we get there? ira 10 20:00:51 elijah end ira 10 20:00:59 ryan RobBoston, then Zapata in response to elijah ira 10 20:01:44 RobBoston Zapata: Maybe I don't understand the distinction you just made but I think 'technical goodies' is right up there with sustainability and responding to user needs. Getting Web 2.0 architecture integrated is as necessary (like YouTube, as you did say) as security if we are to remain a viable new source. ira 10 20:02:35 * zak also has a response to elijah ira 10 20:02:36 RobBoston It's responding to user wants in addition to needs. But that security and sustainability is alleviated if we pick up an existing CMS. ira 10 20:02:38 RobBoston end ira 10 20:02:47 ryan zapata, you have the floor ira 10 20:02:57 Zapata I agree fully with RobBoston ira 10 20:03:25 Zapata on elijah's remarks: ira 10 20:03:41 Zapata I'm a lot more pessimistic on rewrites from scratch: ira 10 20:03:58 Zapata those tend to be open-ended projects with little certainty of completion ira 10 20:04:13 * ga (ga@localhost) gehitu da #cms ira 10 20:04:34 Zapata also, I would like to stress that I'm looking for a pragmatic and practical solution to get out of the very stressfull situation we are (or at least I am) in ira 10 20:04:50 * chrisc hi ira 10 20:04:52 Zapata CMS maintainenance and support is really very time consuming for me now ira 10 20:05:19 Zapata and I hope we can create a different situation that will be easier to sustain ira 10 20:05:21 Zapata end ira 10 20:05:32 ryan alright so... ira 10 20:05:46 * txopi wants to talk ira 10 20:05:58 <ryan> ok txopi, then we'll have a last chance for Q&A ira 10 20:06:16 * elijah has brief clarifying point. ira 10 20:06:40 txopi i think it is too soon to decide anything about start from the scrach vs. customize an existing cms ira 10 20:07:22 txopi i think we should analyze what we want exactly and how much the existing cms's fit out needs ira 10 20:07:22 * Devin question ira 10 20:07:44 * Zapata raises in response ira 10 20:07:55 txopi after doing that we can decide if it is worth to start from zero or not ira 10 20:07:56 txopi end ira 10 20:08:13 ryan elijah, Devin, Zapata ira 10 20:08:25 elijah there are two separate issues: ira 10 20:08:26 elijah (1) what will help current indymedia situation? ira 10 20:08:26 elijah (2) what will keep indymedia relevent for the next five ira 10 20:08:26 elijah years? ira 10 20:08:26 elijah perhaps separate discussion threads and separate solutions. ira 10 20:08:27 elijah end ira 10 20:08:29 * Devin withdraw ira 10 20:08:37 Zapata ok ira 10 20:09:08 <Zapata> I agree with txopi that, may the search for an existing CMS prove fruitless, we may consider rewriting one from scratch (or start from an existing indy CMS) ira 10 20:09:17 * zak withdraws ira 10 20:09:33 * boud has clarifying question ira 10 20:10:09 Zapata however, finding an existing non-indy well maintained CMS will be highly preferable imo ira 10 20:10:09 Zapata in response to elijah: ira 10 20:10:11 Zapata I think in indymedia we never get to issues such as (2) ira 10 20:10:11 Zapata we're not in that luxury :-( ira 10 20:10:13 Zapata end ira 10 20:10:19 ryan boud? ira 10 20:10:48 * init has a remark ira 10 20:10:50 * zak (irc@localhost) has left #cms ira 10 20:11:06 * zak (irc@localhost) gehitu da #cms ira 10 20:11:34 boud it's just the term "indy CMS" - zapata seems to be the main person using it, but it's a bit confusing - tikiwiki and twiki are indymedia cmses according to Devel/WebHome, but i think what zapata actually means here is more like "sf-active/mir/dada" - so this is just a question about clarity... ira 10 20:11:40 boud end ira 10 20:11:43 ryan init ira 10 20:12:02 init I think that the "mir"-problem (to few coders) is mostly a java problem, I think new technologies like web-frameworks enable much more ppl to help with development. ira 10 20:12:05 init end ira 10 20:12:14 * Zapata raises in response ira 10 20:12:19 ryan go ahead ira 10 20:12:39 Zapata on boud: if imcs wish to use tikiwiki and twiki, they're free to do so ofcourse ira 10 20:12:46 * zert (zert@xxx.xxx) gehitu da #cms ira 10 20:12:48 Zapata with indy CMS I mean the CMSes we actively develop ira 10 20:12:56 Zapata and we being mostly me and the sf-active people ira 10 20:13:10 Zapata dada is, if I understand correctly, without maintainer at the moment ira 10 20:13:14 Zapata on init ira 10 20:13:32 Zapata the state of sf-active, a php solution, disproves your point I'd say ira 10 20:13:39 * angdraug has another agenda comment ira 10 20:13:45 Zapata though I admit, being java-based doesn't make mir's situatiuon any easier ira 10 20:13:46 Zapata end ira 10 20:13:52 * boud raises in response ira 10 20:14:12 ryan one comment -- to be fair, sf-active might have messed up by trying to write our own framework instead of using a wider-developed one ira 10 20:14:19 ryan angdraug and then boud in response ira 10 20:14:32 angdraug can we assess what resources we have? ira 10 20:14:34 * shane (clack@localhost) gehitu da #cms ira 10 20:14:47 angdraug as in, who wants and is able to work with what technologies? ira 10 20:14:48 angdraug end ira 10 20:14:55 ryan boud ira 10 20:15:38 * zak raises ira 10 20:15:42 * Devin will work on whatever decided if possible; very experienced in perl, fairly in php, enjoying learning ruby ira 10 20:15:54 boud If we use the term "we" in this way, then it seems to me that "we" = sf-active/dada/mir people and excludes many other indymedia developers/admins/templaters - IMHO if we do not look at the whole indymedia network, then we are already reducing who "we" are and reducing the number of us who can work together. Maybe i'm just being pedantic, but it seems to me important to remember that we're a big wide network. end. ira 10 20:16:11 * Zapata raises in response ira 10 20:16:13 * init want's to clarify that speaking of "web-frameworks" I thought of zope/RoR not php. ira 10 20:16:59 ryan zak, zapata ira 10 20:18:05 zak re frameworks: this is probably a middle road between "existing cms" and "from scratch" that would be a good fallback if there isn't already a suitable cms, rather than writing the whole web framework ourselves. ira 10 20:18:07 zak end ira 10 20:18:28 ryan zapata ira 10 20:18:44 * Zapata agrees with zak and acknowledges init's point, although my point also stands imo :-) ira 10 20:18:46 Zapata on boud's remark ira 10 20:18:54 Zapata this proposal has been made because of a concrete situation: ira 10 20:19:02 Zapata a situation that is unsustainable ira 10 20:19:08 Zapata this happened to be my personal situation ira 10 20:19:17 Zapata I discussed it with others, and they seemed to agree ira 10 20:19:18 * Alster_ (alster@localhost) gehitu da #cms ira 10 20:19:29 * briks (briks@localhost) gehitu da #cms ira 10 20:19:32 Zapata I didn't discuss it with everyone, but ofcourse anyone who wants to join is welcome ira 10 20:19:56 Zapata I do not however feel the need to come to a solution that is acceptable or desirable by everyone ira 10 20:20:00 Zapata end ira 10 20:20:02 RobBoston *twinkle* ira 10 20:20:20 * Alster has quit (Killed (NickServ (Ghost: Alster_!alster@localhost))) ira 10 20:20:26 ryan on that note, ira 10 20:20:35 ryan lets move on to the proposed action going forward with an evaluation ira 10 20:20:38 ryan zapata, could you talk about this? ira 10 20:20:42 * Alster_ orain Alster bezala ezaguna ira 10 20:20:46 Zapata ok ira 10 20:20:47 Zapata so... ira 10 20:21:00 Zapata there would seem to be two important steps to take ira 10 20:21:15 Zapata 1. would be to add structure, more on that later ira 10 20:21:23 Zapata 2. would be to actually look for candidate CMSes ira 10 20:21:40 Zapata I would suggest to do 2. in the following manner: ira 10 20:22:27 Zapata * We start here with going through the requirements lists and add proper definitions, sanitize the list add to it, delete from it, etc ira 10 20:22:43 Zapata * We have a brainstorm sessions to get to a (first) list of candidate CMSes ira 10 20:23:15 * zak raises ira 10 20:23:22 Zapata * Volunteers go about reviewing these CMSes by holding them against the requirements list and reporting on this ira 10 20:23:37 Zapata * We have a follow up IRC meetings to discuss these results and to decide how to go from there ira 10 20:23:43 Zapata On the structure: ira 10 20:24:09 Zapata * Right now, we use the techmeet.sarava.org wiki, it would be nice to switch to docs.indy or so, but it isn't up yet afaik ira 10 20:24:15 Zapata * It would be nice to have a mailing list ira 10 20:24:22 Zapata * It would be nice to have regular irc meetings ira 10 20:24:23 Zapata end ira 10 20:24:25 ryan note -> http://techmeet.sarava.org/English/CMSWhatWeWant ira 10 20:24:50 ryan what we did in sao paulo is tried to be comprehensive in deciding on "must-have" functionality ira 10 20:25:01 ryan so this can be the basis of evaluating candidate CMS'es ira 10 20:25:07 Zapata there's also http://techmeet.sarava.org/English/CMSWhatWeHave ira 10 20:25:11 ryan zapata has made a template of what this will look like ira 10 20:25:18 txopi note -> that page is what we want (and we still don't have) ira 10 20:25:28 ryan that can be found here -> http://techmeet.sarava.org/English/CMSSurveyList ira 10 20:25:29 * boud notes that seems to be points 3 4 5 6 7 8 of the agenda rolled together ira 10 20:25:49 ryan boud, just giving an overview ira 10 20:26:18 ryan so i suggest we begin by going through http://techmeet.sarava.org/English/CMSWhatWeWant ira 10 20:26:24 Zapata well ira 10 20:26:28 ryan and making sure this is correct, as it will be the foundation of the evaluation template ira 10 20:26:37 Zapata I'd say let's do http://techmeet.sarava.org/English/CMSWhatWeHave first ira 10 20:26:43 Zapata the list of current features ira 10 20:27:03 ryan alright, that doesnt really require discussion. zapata, you want to run through that how you want? ira 10 20:27:11 ryan then i'll moderate the "what we want" discussion ira 10 20:27:21 Zapata so, in sao paulo we compiled two lists ira 10 20:27:39 Zapata the "what we have list": the features existing in the current indy CMSes we know (mostly mir and sf-active) ira 10 20:28:06 Zapata the idea is that these features are absolute requirments: we'll have to have them before we can switch ira 10 20:28:22 Zapata ofcourse these do not need to be present in the CMS per se, we might make them part of the customziation process ira 10 20:28:30 Zapata but ofcourse the more there are out-of-the-box, the better ira 10 20:28:43 Zapata and, it should ofcourse be conveniently possible to add them if they aren't already there ira 10 20:29:12 Zapata the second list consists of existing wishes by IMCs, we'd like to have them in the near future ira 10 20:29:16 Zapata so... ira 10 20:29:41 Zapata let's walk through the items on http://techmeet.sarava.org/English/CMSWhatWeHave one at a time ira 10 20:29:56 Zapata clarify them, perhaps change them... and at the end, perhaps add new requirements ira 10 20:30:21 Zapata though, I think important for the process to keep this list as brief as possible ira 10 20:30:37 Zapata since more requirements to cover also means a harder search/customization process, etc ira 10 20:30:51 Zapata the first requirement ira 10 20:30:54 Zapata anonymous open publishing ira 10 20:30:59 Zapata speaks for itself ira 10 20:31:08 Zapata so let's quickly move ot the netxt ira 10 20:31:17 Zapata "distributed content storage" ira 10 20:31:33 Zapata if one looks at mir right now, it's easily possible to make multiple mirrors... ira 10 20:31:42 Zapata by simply using an apache and rsync combination ira 10 20:31:45 * zak raises ira 10 20:31:56 Zapata this facilitates the ability to deal with a lot of hits ira 10 20:32:17 Zapata I, however, think a new cms doesn't necessarily have to do it in the same manner: ira 10 20:32:39 Zapata I would be satisfied with a possibility to make multiple "light" mirrors, not necessarily static mirrors ira 10 20:32:41 Zapata go ahead, zak ira 10 20:33:04 zak there are different meanings that "distributed content storage" can have, as you say ira 10 20:33:39 * Devin raises ira 10 20:33:48 Zapata what is meant here is the mir mirroring feature ira 10 20:33:49 zak while mir has the ability to create multiple caches of the html pages easily, these aren't sufficient to recreate the site if the primary server goes down ira 10 20:33:56 * init raises ira 10 20:34:15 zak which would be provided by, for example, mysql-style database replication of the underlying content storage ira 10 20:34:47 zak for some cmses, a set of squid accelerators could provide a similar performance boost to the mirroring setup ira 10 20:34:48 zak end ira 10 20:34:54 ryan devin, init, back to zapata ira 10 20:35:13 * ryan notes to get on the CMS discussion mailing list, send a blank email to cms@techmeet.org ira 10 20:35:16 Devin good point zak. anonymous open publishing seems assumed, yet ira 10 20:35:33 Devin some dada installs store hashed IPs which could easily be cracked by feds, etc. ira 10 20:35:51 Devin so anonymous vs. anti-abuse measures needs prioritization, clarification ira 10 20:35:53 Devin end ira 10 20:35:57 ryan init ira 10 20:36:00 init Producing flat-html files is the one "top-feature" of mir, applied right, you can do much more with it than just mirroring, Just move the whole document-root to a CD-ROM (or zipfile) and use it for offline browsing ira 10 20:36:42 init I have been looking for that in many other CMSs none does it out of the box. would be sad to lose that. end ira 10 20:36:45 * zak raises in response to init ira 10 20:37:08 ryan zak ira 10 20:37:10 ryan then zapata ira 10 20:37:26 zak i agree it's useful, and have used it for offline demos myself in the past ira 10 20:38:09 init ...and it helps bridging the digital devide. ira 10 20:38:09 zak however, like most things, it also comes with drawbacks -- the most apparent being the long regeneration time required after redesigning a set of templates ira 10 20:38:28 zak but i'm not sure how deep a discussion of this we want to get into at this stage ira 10 20:38:30 zak end ira 10 20:38:46 ryan ok, back to zapata ira 10 20:38:50 Zapata on zak's first point: ira 10 20:38:57 Zapata the feature meant is the mir mirroring feature... ira 10 20:39:12 Zapata so I would suggest renaming the requirement to "easy mirroring capability" ira 10 20:39:32 * zak agrees ira 10 20:39:35 Zapata the other feature zak mentioned is, if I'm correct, on the "what we want"-list, since we don't have it right now ira 10 20:39:46 Zapata on devin: ira 10 20:39:56 * Anna (anna@localhost) gehitu da #cms ira 10 20:40:20 Zapata indeed the anonymous requirement is an excellent example of something that is very indymedia-specific ira 10 20:40:26 Zapata and very important for us ira 10 20:40:27 ryan ira 10 20:40:34 Zapata which explains why it's at the top of the list ;-) ira 10 20:40:38 Zapata on init ira 10 20:40:41 * chrisc raises ira 10 20:40:53 Zapata I would say that storing an imc on a cd is nice, but not a day-to-day requirement ira 10 20:41:01 Zapata indeed, very few cmses have this feature ira 10 20:41:12 Zapata but as zak says, there are drawbacks as well ira 10 20:41:27 Zapata I would still say that "easy mirroring" without requiring static mirrors is what we need ira 10 20:41:39 Zapata since this will cover the most important use of mir's static mirror feature ira 10 20:41:54 Zapata while your use can still be done by using a clever wget script or something similar ira 10 20:41:56 Zapata end ira 10 20:42:09 ryan well, back to the list, then :) ira 10 20:42:15 Zapata chrisc ira 10 20:42:18 Zapata is first ira 10 20:42:19 ryan oh ira 10 20:42:19 chrisc Bricolage, the Perl CMS, which runs www.theregister.co.uk and salon.com generates static content, however it don't have user accounts, anon publishing etc ira 10 20:42:22 chrisc end ira 10 20:42:38 ryan zapata.. ira 10 20:42:41 * chrisc http://www.bricolage.cc/ ira 10 20:42:45 Zapata the next requirement: syndication -out/in ira 10 20:42:54 Zapata most indymedia sites offer rss feeds ira 10 20:43:05 Zapata which are in high demand by users ira 10 20:43:12 Zapata some indymedia sites also import rss feeds ira 10 20:43:36 Zapata for instance indymedia.org uses it to come to a feature wire with features from all the different indymedia sites around ira 10 20:43:43 Zapata end ira 10 20:43:55 ryan ... ira 10 20:43:58 * RobBoston raises ira 10 20:44:03 Zapata go ahead ira 10 20:44:27 * boud syndication in/out is definitely a Good Thing ira 10 20:44:29 RobBoston Sorry, are we marking things down on the wishlist here as either 'would be nice' or 'essential.' Came to mind thinking of this; I' ira 10 20:44:35 RobBoston I'd say RSS would be essential ira 10 20:44:36 RobBoston end ira 10 20:44:41 Zapata in response: ira 10 20:44:42 ryan this isnt the wishlist ira 10 20:44:44 ryan this is what we have ira 10 20:44:46 Zapata these are all essential features ira 10 20:44:50 Zapata since we already have them ira 10 20:44:56 Zapata ok ira 10 20:45:00 Zapata the next requirments: ira 10 20:45:01 Zapata search ira 10 20:45:14 Zapata a no brainer... ira 10 20:45:16 * Alster raises ira 10 20:45:22 Zapata go ahead, alster ira 10 20:45:36 Alster I'm a bit irritated by this. ira 10 20:45:49 Alster You're saying the features we already have are essential. ira 10 20:45:56 Alster I don't think this is the case for all of them. ira 10 20:46:14 Alster We sure have a lot of featuresin some of the CMS' currently being used by IMCs which are not essential. ira 10 20:46:25 * Devin suggests you say so case-by-case as we discuss a feature ira 10 20:46:27 Alster ... and offten not being used either. ira 10 20:46:52 * zak agrees with devin ira 10 20:47:09 Alster so it would be better to make sure we have a deep looka t all the features currently provided by the several cms and sort out those which really are considered essential. ira 10 20:47:24 Alster it's well possible some are being missed right now, unless it has been done this way. ira 10 20:47:30 Alster end ira 10 20:47:41 Zapata I would agree with devin as well ira 10 20:47:52 Zapata are there any features I mentioned that you deem not essential? ira 10 20:48:21 Zapata also the list has been compiled according to your suggestions... some of mir's features are not on it for example, since no IMC uses it ira 10 20:48:28 Zapata end ira 10 20:49:02 Zapata shall I go on with features? ira 10 20:49:06 Alster No. I'm more afraid we're missing some which we already have, which are essential, but we're not aware of it, and which we may be missing in the future requirements list ira 10 20:49:08 ryan unless somsone has a response ira 10 20:49:26 * zak raises in response to alster ira 10 20:49:30 Alster the 'no' referred to "are there any features I mentioned that you deem not essential?" ira 10 20:49:32 Alster end ira 10 20:49:56 * boud raises on WhatWeHave ira 10 20:50:17 ryan zak, boud, zapata ira 10 20:50:18 zak i think we had "any other existing features" for discussion after this list anyway, so perhaps we can look at that further then? ira 10 20:50:20 zak end ira 10 20:50:44 ryan boud ira 10 20:50:46 * Alster is fine with zak's suggestion ira 10 20:51:04 boud we haven't got up it yet, but it seems to me that "send article to a friend" may not be essential - it seems turned off in most indymedias (i vaguely remember seeing it in use a few years ago) (maybe it was turned off because it was abused?) end ira 10 20:51:13 boud s/up it/up to it/g ira 10 20:51:43 Zapata let's discuss that feature when we get there ira 10 20:51:50 boud ok ira 10 20:51:56 Zapata I'll now list a number of features that I suspect are not controversial... ira 10 20:52:03 Zapata * The ability to create multiple instances ira 10 20:52:03 Zapata It should be possible to host multiple IMCs on a single server ira 10 20:52:03 Zapata * Multimedia handling ira 10 20:52:03 Zapata It should be possible to post images and videos, as these are used frequently by our user base ira 10 20:52:03 Zapata * Categories ira 10 20:52:05 Zapata It should be possible to organise content (i.e. postings) by category, region, type, etc ira 10 20:52:14 Zapata * Good performance on affordable hardware ira 10 20:52:14 Zapata Our often improvised equipment should be able to host the IMC sites ira 10 20:52:23 Zapata * customisability ira 10 20:52:52 Zapata IMCs should be able to organise their postings in a custom way. Also it should be easily possible to add indymedia customizations. ira 10 20:53:01 * Devin raises ira 10 20:53:05 Zapata go ahead ira 10 20:53:19 Devin "customisability" is over-broad term compared to others in list ira 10 20:53:44 Devin people will be using this list to evaluate -- hard to evalutate on broad terms ira 10 20:53:49 Devin possible to specify more? ira 10 20:53:50 Devin end ira 10 20:53:54 Zapata true, but it's also a broad requirement... ira 10 20:54:20 Zapata one of the sources of this requirment was mir's feature of flexible producer creation and templating ira 10 20:54:38 Zapata perhaps I should work on a text to clarify it more concretely... I'll work on that... in the meantime, let's go on ira 10 20:54:51 Zapata ok? ira 10 20:54:57 Devin yes, thanks ira 10 20:55:07 Zapata * internationalisation / translation ira 10 20:55:33 Zapata The indymedia network is global. A lot of different languages are spoken. A lot of IMCs work with multiple languages. ira 10 20:55:41 * zak raises ira 10 20:55:48 Zapata Translations of postings are a key tool in this ira 10 20:55:50 Zapata go ahead, zak ira 10 20:56:19 zak i'm not that familiar with the multi-language sites. however i think there are a lot of levels of internationalisation ira 10 20:56:30 * txopi wants to talk ira 10 20:56:43 zak and i think it's important that we identify which ones we already have (and so are essential) and which ones are still wish-list ira 10 20:56:44 zak end ira 10 20:56:57 <ryan> ok txopi ira 10 20:57:39 txopi i think internationalisation should be a different point ira 10 20:58:27 txopi usually this kind of features are clasified as localization (coins, hour formats...) and internationalization (languages...) ira 10 20:59:03 ryan ok, zapata can oyu mark that change? ira 10 20:59:04 txopi the tanslation feature is not very common and should be analyzed apart ira 10 20:59:05 ryan and lets keep going ira 10 20:59:06 txopi end ira 10 20:59:13 ryan we gotta get through this list because the next list is the real discussion ira 10 20:59:19 Zapata Ok ira 10 20:59:25 Zapata let me rephrase ira 10 20:59:29 Zapata internationalization ira 10 20:59:47 Zapata The ability to present an IMC site in multiple languages ira 10 20:59:59 Zapata for the navigational aspects ira 10 21:00:18 Zapata including the ability to easily add a supported language ira 10 21:00:20 Zapata translation ira 10 21:00:23 * Kameron (Kam@localhost) gehitu da #cms ira 10 21:00:44 * chrisc the CMS must do UTF-8, but these days I think most do already... ira 10 21:00:44 Devin navigational = localization = much easier than on-the-fly translation ira 10 21:00:46 Zapata The ability to allow users to anonymously translate postings ira 10 21:01:18 * nah has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) ira 10 21:01:19 * fernao has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) ira 10 21:01:20 Zapata both features exist and both features are used frequently, though internationalization is the more widely used ira 10 21:01:31 * PseudoPunk notes l10n is important too: 24h/12h times, d/m/y vs m/d/y, ... ira 10 21:01:58 Zapata anyway, I consider this to be one of the easier to understand requirements... ira 10 21:02:07 Zapata shall we go on? :-) ira 10 21:02:17 ryan yes ira 10 21:02:18 * txopi agrees ira 10 21:02:25 Zapata * comments ira 10 21:02:25 Zapata The ability to comment / add clarification / updates to an article is an essential feature on most IMC sites ira 10 21:02:25 Zapata * anti-abuse measures ira 10 21:02:25 Zapata Unfortunately, a lot of IMC's have to deal with a lot of abuse: spam, trolling, ddos attacks. The CMS should offer the tools to deal with this. ira 10 21:02:34 Zapata * easy moderation ira 10 21:03:10 Zapata moderation of open postings is one of the least favourite tasks in indymedia collectives. This should be as easy as possible. Think about removing spam postings, hiding racist postings entirely from sight (as is required in some countries) ira 10 21:03:19 Zapata * calendar ira 10 21:03:40 Zapata A lot of IMC sites have a calendar where people can post there activism events on ira 10 21:03:47 Zapata * features ira 10 21:04:10 * angdraug raises on calendar ira 10 21:04:13 Zapata Most IMCs work with an open newswire and a middle (feature) column with postings by the editorial collective. ira 10 21:04:16 Zapata go ahead, angdraug ira 10 21:04:26 angdraug how much of a calendar we want? ira 10 21:04:32 angdraug end ira 10 21:04:46 * Morten^Toft (k@localhost) gehitu da #cms ira 10 21:05:03 ryan this is just what we have ira 10 21:05:05 ryan not what we want ira 10 21:05:11 ryan zapata.. go on with the list ira 10 21:05:21 Zapata * documentation ira 10 21:05:32 Zapata We need a well documented CMS. ira 10 21:05:39 * zak raises ira 10 21:05:42 Zapata go ahead ira 10 21:06:26 zak i agree that's something we'd like... although i'm not sure how documented our existing ones are. is that a "what we have" or a "what we want"? ira 10 21:06:28 zak end ira 10 21:06:38 Zapata agree ira 10 21:06:42 ryan this is all "what we have" ira 10 21:06:44 * boud raises on calendar ira 10 21:06:57 ryan we need to save discussion of requirements/"what we want" for next topic ira 10 21:06:59 ryan boud? ira 10 21:07:29 boud i thought that the most used calendars right now are e.g. radicalendar and use either non-free software or non-free servers or both... ira 10 21:07:45 boud so i don't know if we already have it in a genuinely free software indymedia sense ira 10 21:07:47 boud end ira 10 21:07:48 ryan mm sf-active has a calendar built-in ira 10 21:07:52 ryan i think this refers to that ira 10 21:07:54 ryan zapata? ira 10 21:08:06 Zapata true ira 10 21:08:08 Zapata it's not in mir ira 10 21:08:22 Zapata it's sf-active's calendar we're talking about ira 10 21:08:26 boud ok ira 10 21:08:40 Zapata I'll go on ira 10 21:08:42 Zapata * send article to a friend ira 10 21:08:42 Zapata Speaks for itself ira 10 21:08:52 Zapata * scaling ira 10 21:08:52 Zapata It should be possible to deal with varying number of hits on sites. If the G8 comes to town, an IMC site may suddenly have to deal with hits an order of magnitutde bigger. The CMS should make it possible to deal with this. ira 10 21:09:00 Zapata send an article may not be that important ira 10 21:09:14 Zapata scaling is a part of two aforementioned requirements imo ira 10 21:09:17 * luisfelipe (luisfelip@xxx.xx) gehitu da #cms ira 10 21:09:19 Zapata I would suggest removing these two ira 10 21:09:31 * Devin agree ira 10 21:09:44 * zak agrees too ira 10 21:10:02 * gus _o/ about the send an article problem.. ira 10 21:10:05 * txopi wants to talk ira 10 21:10:14 Zapata go ahead, gus ira 10 21:10:52 * Alster agrees with removal of those, too ira 10 21:10:53 gus well, "send an article" option could be used to spam, like happened in imc paris ira 10 21:11:22 Zapata right, so you would agree to remove it from the requirements list :-) ira 10 21:11:31 gus i think that option is only good for features <end> ira 10 21:11:41 <Zapata> txopi? ira 10 21:11:45 txopi i'm absolutely agree about removing 'send article to a friend' from the list ira 10 21:11:54 ryan .... ira 10 21:11:56 ryan this is what we have ira 10 21:11:58 ryan not what we want ira 10 21:12:08 txopi i know ira 10 21:12:19 ryan so, to the extent 'send article' is something we have ... ira 10 21:12:21 ryan it stays on the list :) ira 10 21:12:23 txopi but this feature isn't really important ira 10 21:12:34 * zak raises ira 10 21:12:35 * Zapata raises ira 10 21:12:37 txopi mir, sf-active and other have a lot more features ira 10 21:12:58 txopi about scaling, i think it is important to keep it ira 10 21:13:06 * Zapata raises^2 ira 10 21:13:14 kwadronaut back online ira 10 21:13:18 txopi end ira 10 21:13:27 ryan ok, zak and then zapata ira 10 21:13:31 zak i think this is "what we have, that we aren't happy to lose" ira 10 21:13:36 zak on scaling... ira 10 21:13:52 zak i think it's a very broad term, as there are lots of ways in which a solution might scale or not ira 10 21:14:16 zak for instance, mir scales very well in terms of number of passive visitors due to the static mirroring capability ira 10 21:14:42 * Devin point of clarification: proposal was to merge concept of scaling into earlier "easy mirroring" ira 10 21:14:45 zak on the other hand, some of the producers don't scale that well as the size of the site increases ira 10 21:15:01 * Zapata in addition to Devin's point: and to "good performence on affordable hardware" ira 10 21:15:16 zak so i think we have to be specific on what ways our existing solutions scale well ira 10 21:15:44 * boud i think zak explained it well: 'i think this is "what we have, that we aren't happy to lose"' ira 10 21:15:51 zak re: affordable hardware -- experience with traven doesn't suggest we necessarily have that at the moment ira 10 21:15:53 zak end ira 10 21:16:07 ryan ok, so let me just throw in here.. ira 10 21:16:16 ryan whatever this list means exactly, we arent really going to refer to it again ira 10 21:16:20 ryan ever, probably ira 10 21:16:42 * sin^guia (sin^guia@localhost) gehitu da #cms ira 10 21:16:43 ryan so, zapata, anything else on this part? ira 10 21:16:56 ryan because then we can move to discussing requirements/evaluation list ira 10 21:17:20 Zapata I agree the discussions we have right now aren't very important. And we're already busy for 2 hours ira 10 21:17:25 Zapata I suggest we move on to the second list ira 10 21:17:26 ryan yeah ira 10 21:17:32 ryan alright, here we go ira 10 21:17:33 * txopi agrees ira 10 21:17:43 * zak raises before we move on ira 10 21:17:54 ryan .. zak? ira 10 21:17:58 zak we've talked quite a bit about existing mir and sf-active features ira 10 21:18:14 zak i just want to be sure we haven't missed features in eg dada, oscailt... ira 10 21:18:18 zak if anyone is familiar with them ira 10 21:18:19 zak end ira 10 21:18:21 * txopi raises ira 10 21:18:33 ryan well let's think of them and if so, and they are relevant enough to be on requirements list, we can add them there ira 10 21:18:46 ryan again, this list is just to have a discussion and we probably won't ever use it again ira 10 21:18:51 ryan so getting it perfect isnt a top priority ira 10 21:18:55 <ryan> txopi? ira 10 21:18:56 * Devin raise ira 10 21:19:03 * boud raises ira 10 21:19:05 txopi i'm not familiar with dada but i know that some features in the WhatWeWant list are present in dada right now ira 10 21:19:33 txopi for example licensing options ira 10 21:19:42 txopi and perhaps image galleries ira 10 21:20:01 txopi about social network, dada has the post polling feature ira 10 21:20:03 txopi end ira 10 21:20:26 ryan alright, uhhh devin and boud? comments that must be made before we move on? ira 10 21:20:35 Devin one feature in oscailt I like; not sure name; sub-regions of an IMC defined by ira 10 21:20:35 Devin geography in their case but could be defined by subject perhaps as well ira 10 21:20:46 Devin end ira 10 21:20:49 ryan boud ira 10 21:21:21 boud "user moderation - open editing" is a features we already have in an indymedia CMS - it's in samizdat and used by indymedia belarus and indymedia ukraine ira 10 21:22:00 ryan done? ira 10 21:22:02 boud so in the spirit of "what we have and don't want to lose", i guess we should add it ira 10 21:22:03 * zak thinks devin's point is covered by "categories", as are mir's regions and topics ira 10 21:22:04 boud end ira 10 21:22:08 ryan ok ira 10 21:22:14 ryan so ira 10 21:22:33 ryan the next part is a list of requirements and/or areas of evaluation ira 10 21:22:50 ryan so, take a look at http://techmeet.sarava.org/English/CMSSurveyList ira 10 21:23:07 ryan we would like to fill out this page with CMS'es and "evaluation owners" ira 10 21:23:31 ryan the evaluation owners would set up a demo of the CMS, allow others access to it on request, and then report-back to this group ira 10 21:23:45 ryan report-back about how the CMS did with each requirement/area of evaluation ira 10 21:23:56 ryan a template for this seen here -> http://techmeet.sarava.org/English/CMSSurveyReportTemplate ira 10 21:24:15 ryan so, we should go through this list and make sure these things are clear and consistent ira 10 21:24:20 ryan keeping in mind what this list is gonna be used for ira 10 21:24:38 ryan lets stop there for a second ira 10 21:24:43 ryan does that sound right to everyone? ira 10 21:25:12 * boud saw no objections so i added user moderation - open editing to WhatWeHave ira 10 21:25:31 zak we're talking about the list on http://techmeet.sarava.org/English/CMSWhatWeWant right? ira 10 21:25:56 ryan no ira 10 21:26:00 ryan er ira 10 21:26:01 ryan yes :) ira 10 21:26:02 ryan sorry ira 10 21:26:20 ryan but i think we go through them one-by-one ira 10 21:26:46 ryan ok well ira 10 21:27:05 ryan if there is nothing in general about that plan-of-action, lets go through the list ira 10 21:27:15 * zak is happy with that plan ira 10 21:27:38 ryan ok ira 10 21:27:51 * boud confused - are we working on WhatWeWant or CMSSurveyList now ? ira 10 21:27:51 * zak (irc@localhost) has left #cms ira 10 21:28:00 ryan boud, CMSWhatWeWant ira 10 21:28:02 * zak (irc@localhost) gehitu da #cms ira 10 21:28:05 boud ok ira 10 21:28:09 ryan alright so, lets start with the first item ira 10 21:28:17 ryan "User logins (networkwide?)" ira 10 21:28:26 ryan the idea here is that we would allow user registration ira 10 21:28:49 ryan so, users could own a username and authenticate with it which would allow users to have identities that are protected ira 10 21:29:08 ryan also, the idea was kicked around that it would be interesting to have the option of network-wide logins ira 10 21:29:30 ryan i.e. if nessie registers at sf.indymedia.org, he can then go to germany.indymedia.org and log in as nessie with the same password ira 10 21:29:47 * Alster would like to make a note on the evaluation process just introduced by ryan, sorry for being late. ira 10 21:30:05 ryan so, we want to evaluate CMS'es and understand how they handle user logins ira 10 21:30:09 ryan Alster - go ahead ira 10 21:30:15 * Alster is happy with the process, too, but notes that we must make sure CMSWhatWeHave is refactored to CMSWhatWeWant if CMSWhatWeHave will not be used as an evaluation factor in the future. ira 10 21:30:17 Alster end ira 10 21:30:26 * boud raises ira 10 21:30:34 * clara (clara@localhost) gehitu da #cms ira 10 21:30:47 ryan Alster - we have this one - http://techmeet.sarava.org/English/CMSWhatWeWant ira 10 21:30:59 ryan not sure what you mean? ira 10 21:31:51 Alster you said that CMSWhatWeHave will likely not be used in the future. If so, we should make sure that everything listed in this docuemnt, which is basically, what we have now and what we want to keep, is also found in the new document ira 10 21:32:02 Alster (CMSWhatWeWant) ira 10 21:32:04 Alster end ira 10 21:32:16 ryan sure, well, here is the opportunity to add anything at all (including stuff from there) to the WhatWeWant list ira 10 21:32:21 ryan boud? ira 10 21:33:05 * kwadronaut raises ira 10 21:33:20 boud the single user login could potentially go way beyond indymedia - i'm trying to find the official name for this right now, but the idea is that someone should not have to make a zillion different logins with different passwords on different services ira 10 21:33:43 boud IMHO we should add the option that someone uses this if s/he wants it... ira 10 21:33:43 luisfelipe boud: passport ? ira 10 21:33:44 boud end ira 10 21:33:54 ryan kwadronaut? ira 10 21:33:56 kwadronaut network wide based username could be nice but i suggest we odont focus on it, it has downsides too: wouldnt there be too many same usernames used by people at different locations like anna in nyc, germany and prolly some other places too ira 10 21:34:09 kwadronaut <end> ira 10 21:34:15 * angdraug raises in response ira 10 21:34:19 ryan angdraug ira 10 21:34:35 angdraug if we do network-wide logins, we sould do it jabber-style ira 10 21:34:45 * Devin raise on suggestion for current discussion process ira 10 21:34:51 angdraug that is, user registers with IMC A, and the as user@imc-a at other IMCs ira 10 21:34:56 angdraug end ira 10 21:35:08 * txopi wants to talk ira 10 21:35:10 ryan Devin? ira 10 21:35:16 * boud luisfelipe: i'm not sure... ira 10 21:35:19 Devin rather than worry what on what list now, ira 10 21:35:24 Devin someone is logging right? ira 10 21:35:35 ryan ?- i am logging ira 10 21:35:45 Devin we can discuss priroities for all items, someone can complie and present list for use in evaluations ira 10 21:35:49 * boud logging too ira 10 21:35:54 ryan yes, thats what we're doing! ira 10 21:35:56 Devin we can discuss or accept ira 10 21:35:58 Devin end ira 10 21:36:15 Devin sorry, seems like we are trying to get too definitive now, maybe jsut emk ira 10 21:36:17 Devin just me ira 10 21:36:18 Devin end ira 10 21:36:21 ryan right, so unless there is an objection to evaluating end-user logins, lets move on ira 10 21:36:25 <ryan> txopi? ira 10 21:36:53 txopi it think worlwide login isn't so inportant as in a pool that someone did a years or so ago, the imc readers use to read in general just one imc ira 10 21:37:34 * boud i think it's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenID i was thinking of ira 10 21:37:44 ryan ok, worldwide login is something to be evaluated, so opinions noted, we can move on to the next item ira 10 21:37:44 txopi the single sign-on (sso) feature is very difficult to reach and i think we should focus just on "user logins" ira 10 21:37:45 txopi end ira 10 21:38:01 ryan well, for instance, drupal supports this out-of-the-box ira 10 21:38:07 * nessie has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) ira 10 21:38:08 ryan so we want to know if a CMS has support for it or not ira 10 21:38:22 ryan the next item is user access controls ira 10 21:38:24 txopi ok, so separate the both features please ira 10 21:38:53 <ryan> txopi: ok, i think thats good (i can take these suggestions and modify the list after the mtg) ira 10 21:39:13 ryan user access controls means that users should log into the site and we can control if they are admins and can edit the newswires ira 10 21:39:21 ryan or if they are users and have publishing/etc rights only ira 10 21:39:36 ryan comments/suggestions? ira 10 21:40:21 ryan next two items are similar -- we need to evaluate the moderation system for newswires and give a good reportback on that ira 10 21:40:46 ryan to understand all of our options related to rankings/users and admins moderating/etc ira 10 21:40:53 ryan comments on this ..? ira 10 21:41:23 ryan excellent. next item is detailed ira 10 21:41:26 txopi wait ira 10 21:41:29 boud boud raises ira 10 21:41:41 <ryan> txopi, then boud ira 10 21:42:14 txopi if you don't mind i want to ask what really means "user moderation - open editing" (probably i don't understand because my poor english) ira 10 21:42:39 <luisfelipe> txopi: something wikilike I think ira 10 21:42:59 luisfelipe let the users moderate articles by making everything edittable ira 10 21:43:05 txopi mmh ira 10 21:43:09 ryan mmm well ira 10 21:43:11 ryan like this: ira 10 21:43:22 * boud agrees with luisfelipe ira 10 21:43:23 ryan 1) sf-active allows admins to moderate articles as local, global, open, etc ira 10 21:43:37 ryan 2) so, what kind of admin moderation can we set up with each CMS ira 10 21:43:58 ryan 3) also, what are the options with users ranking articles, like 1-10 ratings of quality ira 10 21:44:06 ryan 4) also, what are the options with users editing their own articles ira 10 21:44:18 ryan maybe this item should be expanded to include all these things ira 10 21:44:32 txopi i understand, ok ira 10 21:44:37 txopi thanks :-) ira 10 21:44:43 txopi we can go on ira 10 21:45:00 * boud still raised hand ira 10 21:45:05 ryan boud ira 10 21:45:16 boud just to say that "user moderation - open editing" is already part of WhatWeHave (samizdat) ira 10 21:45:19 boud end ira 10 21:46:02 ryan alright, so the next point ira 10 21:46:09 ryan is to add social networking features to indymedia ira 10 21:46:12 ryan including: ira 10 21:46:18 ryan 1) ability for users to maintain a profile about themselves ira 10 21:46:34 ryan 2) ability for users to keep track of articles/media they have published and edit it later after logging in ira 10 21:46:41 ryan 3) ability to have "friends" or a network with other users ira 10 21:46:58 ryan 4) ability to have their own page, i.e. sf.indymedia.org/users/username which contains profile, list of articles they've published, their friends, etc ira 10 21:47:04 ryan thats it, i think ira 10 21:47:06 ryan comments? ira 10 21:47:06 kwadronaut 4) ability for other users/admin to contact author? ira 10 21:47:10 kwadronaut oh that's in 4 ira 10 21:47:26 * txopi has no comments ira 10 21:47:59 angdraug aren't 1 and 4 same? ira 10 21:48:14 ryan well #1 refers to the page you edit the profile with ira 10 21:48:18 ryan #4 refers to page others see the profile on ira 10 21:48:21 ryan :) ira 10 21:48:59 ryan ok -- next item ira 10 21:49:00 * alex raises ira 10 21:49:03 ryan go ahead, alex ira 10 21:49:14 alex do we really want to change indy to a myspace for activists? ira 10 21:49:24 txopi xDD ira 10 21:49:25 ryan i do :) ira 10 21:49:26 alex i think indy should focus on anymous open publishing ira 10 21:49:34 * txopi raises ira 10 21:49:37 RobBoston i think it's a great idea ira 10 21:49:37 ryan ok, anonymous publishing is not going to go away ira 10 21:49:45 ryan but let me take a second here ira 10 21:49:45 alex there are other initiatives, crabgrass tries to be exactly a "myspace for activists" ira 10 21:49:51 ryan to add what was discussed in sao paulo ira 10 21:50:00 alex this raises a whole bunch of security issues here ira 10 21:50:15 alex and besides that, i think this should be discussed broader than just from techies ira 10 21:50:25 pietro alex: i dont think that is the goal of crabgrass ira 10 21:50:29 ryan wait, wait ira 10 21:50:33 ryan lets keep it ordered ira 10 21:50:41 <ryan> ryan, txopi, pietro ira 10 21:50:44 ryan alex, type 'end' when you are done ira 10 21:50:46 * alex not done ira 10 21:51:03 alex as i said, i really think we should focus on anonymous open publishing ira 10 21:51:34 alex i'm all for eche checking out possibilities to give users more direct power for their and other articles and even comments ira 10 21:51:42 alex but that's a big discussion, too ira 10 21:52:05 alex i think we can't add the point "profiles, social networking.." to the "WhatWeWant" list just like that ira 10 21:52:23 alex as a side note: are we still on track of the general meeting timeline or too far off? :) ira 10 21:52:26 alex done ira 10 21:52:35 <ryan> ok -> ryan, txopi, pietro ira 10 21:52:47 ryan so, this was discussed in-depth in sao paulo ira 10 21:53:04 ryan first, i think sf-imc has locally decided to go this route and is gonna start implementing something ahead of schedule of cms development ira 10 21:53:37 * boud alex: we're doing point 4., we sort of skipped 3. ira 10 21:53:38 ryan second, security is definitely a concern. cops get paid money to develop social network maps of activists and we would be creating these maps for them ira 10 21:53:52 ryan so, user education would have to be part of this ira 10 21:54:05 alex (users are dumb) ira 10 21:54:08 ryan third, anonymous publishing is not displaced by this feature set ira 10 21:54:29 ryan fourth, i want to expand a little on why this is wanted ira 10 21:54:42 ryan which is -- open publishing as we implement it now on IMC was innovative in 1999 ira 10 21:54:45 ryan it was innovative in 2000 ira 10 21:54:53 ryan but it is no longer innovative by itself ira 10 21:55:11 ryan indymedia has been eclipsed by commercial open publishing websites which provide a richer feature set ira 10 21:55:14 * boud thinks (optional) user IDs would definitely be well received in the polish indymedia/activist community ira 10 21:55:47 ryan so, it is disappointing but common to see many indymedia people now publishing on youtube or flickr ira 10 21:55:53 ryan because the functionality is better ira 10 21:56:07 * chrisc nods ira 10 21:56:08 ryan not only for media publishing, but for connecting with other people they know, sharing media, categorizing their media as a community, etc ira 10 21:56:19 ryan the feeling in sao paulo was, ira 10 21:56:20 * boud in parallel to our formal agenda: Who We Have: http://techmeet.sarava.org/English/CMSWhoWeHave ira 10 21:56:38 ryan if indymedia is going to continue to be relevant and useful for media-savvy activists, ira 10 21:56:55 ryan we have to catch up with corporate websites that are beating us feature-wise ira 10 21:57:03 ryan all that said, i think the point is it will be up to each local IMC ira 10 21:57:12 ryan whether they want to implement social networking functionality on their local IMC ira 10 21:57:19 * Alster raises ira 10 21:57:22 * zak raises ira 10 21:57:26 * init raises ira 10 21:57:27 * boud agrees with ryan ira 10 21:57:34 * txopi is still waiting ira 10 21:57:37 ryan but if this is not even an option, then we have problems continuing to be useful as the open publishing world continues to innovate beyond us ira 10 21:57:41 * PseudoPunk leaves now. i'll read logs tomorrow ira 10 21:57:42 ryan ok. ira 10 21:57:48 <ryan> txopi, Alster, zak, init ira 10 21:57:57 txopi i think social network like features can be very apreciate for some users ira 10 21:58:03 * alex pietro after txopi .. ira 10 21:58:08 txopi the social filtering systems can be usefull for big cmi's ira 10 21:58:09 alex without me.. ira 10 21:58:19 txopi i think open publishing and this features are absolutely compatible ira 10 21:58:25 txopi but the priority of them is completely different of course ira 10 21:59:00 * jebba_ (jebba@localhost) gehitu da #cms ira 10 21:59:08 txopi as ryan explained this features must be optional but i think quite people will use them ira 10 21:59:40 txopi ryan said that commertial servers use them, but i think that circunstantial ira 10 21:59:54 txopi this features are interesting for a lot of people ira 10 22:00:35 txopi in our case, social network features can help to improve the quality of the debates ira 10 22:00:36 txopi end ira 10 22:00:45 Alster I would like to note that the ideal system would be very modular, as such allowing to deactivate some (or maybe even all) of the (social) networking features. This will not be possible for all features, as some may integrate deply into the core (for example: user accounts + action tracking + permissions). Functions which are integrated into the core and thus not modular should still offer the user an option of selecting whether or not she uses them. ira 10 22:00:45 Alster For this reason, I think social networking functionality should be listed as a very appreciated, but not as a required functionality. However, I'm not going to fight about this so I'll be fine if it remains as it is, too. end. ira 10 22:00:53 ryan pietro, zak, init ira 10 22:00:56 ryan pietro? ira 10 22:01:12 pietro i was going to say kinda what ryan said ira 10 22:01:13 pietro so ira 10 22:01:15 pietro end ira 10 22:01:27 ryan zak ira 10 22:01:30 zak i'm not that keen on the social networking stuff myself -- it's not really what indymedia is about to me. however, if there are IMCs which specifically want it (and it appears there are) it should be on the list. completely agree with alster that it should be an "optional extra" if implemented. ira 10 22:01:36 zak <end> ira 10 22:01:38 * RobBoston raises ira 10 22:01:49 ryan init ira 10 22:01:52 * init withdraws ira 10 22:01:59 ryan rob ira 10 22:02:22 RobBoston The success of this CMS will depend on how flexible it is for administrators as well as users, which in turn depends on keeping the documentation detailed and up to date. As long as we explain how to turn it off if desired, I say let's aim for including the features. ira 10 22:02:23 RobBoston end ira 10 22:02:35 ryan ok, any other comments on this one? ira 10 22:02:40 ryan 1.. ira 10 22:02:43 ryan 2.. ira 10 22:02:47 * ian raises ira 10 22:02:48 ryan ok ira 10 22:02:50 ian :) ira 10 22:02:50 ryan ... ian ira 10 22:02:51 Zapata lol ira 10 22:02:52 ian hehe ira 10 22:02:52 ian ok ira 10 22:02:53 ian so ira 10 22:03:05 ian i think that, of course, the features should be as optional as possible ira 10 22:03:06 ian but ira 10 22:03:12 ian i totaly agree that indymedia has fallen behind ira 10 22:03:16 ian and that the social networking aspect ira 10 22:03:23 ian will be one that brings us up to date ira 10 22:03:28 ian in a very helpful way ira 10 22:03:31 ian i'm all in favor ira 10 22:03:34 ian umm ira 10 22:03:34 ian end ira 10 22:03:39 * alex would like to knot if there was a consensus about this topic at techmeet ira 10 22:03:42 alex *know ira 10 22:04:02 maxigas_ hi alex ira 10 22:04:07 ryan the consensus was it should be available for local imc's ira 10 22:04:14 ryan and that without it, we're woefully behind everyone else ira 10 22:04:18 ryan i think that was the consensus ira 10 22:04:59 ryan ok, next item ira 10 22:05:12 ryan is pod/vodcasting -- we want to evaluate feature-sets associated with pod/vod ira 10 22:05:34 ryan not too controversial in comparison to user profiles :) ira 10 22:06:01 ryan next is redundancy ira 10 22:06:07 ryan so, this is one of the harder ones ira 10 22:06:19 ryan something discussed in sao paulo is that indymedia has a unique requirement that most CMS'es dont have ira 10 22:06:26 ryan which is that we have to be safe from cops ira 10 22:06:35 ryan or corporations or whomever wants to steal our data/content ira 10 22:06:51 * zak raises ira 10 22:07:02 ryan so, we need to evaluate how easy it will be to add distributed db/content storage to achieve redundancy ira 10 22:07:12 ryan that is, to mirror sites db/content on other servers ira 10 22:07:16 ryan in other geographic locations ira 10 22:07:20 ryan zak? ira 10 22:07:40 zak just to mention that this is not necessarily a feature of the cms itself ira 10 22:07:48 * angdraug raises ira 10 22:07:51 * Devin raises ira 10 22:07:57 zak but often of the database layer ira 10 22:08:14 zak eg mysql actually makes this quite easy ira 10 22:08:17 zak end ira 10 22:08:33 ryan angdraug, devin ira 10 22:08:42 angdraug for the sake of clarity, can we rename this item to "easy backups"? ira 10 22:08:54 ryan well, its more than backups ira 10 22:08:58 * zak raises in response to angdraug ira 10 22:09:00 angdraug zak: some CMSs are so complicated backups go beyond DB layer ira 10 22:09:02 angdraug end ira 10 22:09:08 ryan we want hot redundant servers ira 10 22:09:19 Devin cms issues are things like: ira 10 22:09:33 Devin can the code handle distributed authentication (session cookies) ira 10 22:09:35 Devin end ira 10 22:09:47 ryan ? ira 10 22:09:58 * angdraug wants to respond ira 10 22:10:05 ryan go ahead, ang ira 10 22:10:09 ryan draug ira 10 22:10:24 * Morten^Toft has quit (Quit: Denne computer faldt i søvn) ira 10 22:10:29 Devin was ? for me? ira 10 22:10:32 angdraug then, it seems to intersect with item we discussed before in WhatWeHave list? ira 10 22:10:35 Devin being to technical? ira 10 22:10:53 * Devin has quit (Quit: -------------------------------zzzzzzzz) ira 10 22:10:56 * Kvn has quit (Quit: Kvn) ira 10 22:11:06 * Devin (Devin@xxx.xxx) gehitu da #cms ira 10 22:11:09 angdraug easy mirroring capability? ira 10 22:11:10 angdraug end ira 10 22:11:10 ryan angdraug: ? which item? ira 10 22:11:11 * boud CMSWhatWeHave: "easy mirroring capability" ira 10 22:11:29 ryan ah, i think it can be summarized like this ira 10 22:11:48 ryan "if one machine is taken by surprise out of the network, no imc will suffer downtime as a result" ira 10 22:11:59 ryan whatever we gotta do to achieve that ira 10 22:12:09 Devin boud: exisiting mirroring was static content; this is full features/db ira 10 22:12:19 * boud ok ira 10 22:12:26 angdraug ok ira 10 22:12:53 * kvn (kvn@xxx.xxx) gehitu da #cms ira 10 22:12:57 ryan ok ira 10 22:13:14 ryan next item is version control ira 10 22:13:19 ryan i'm not exactly sure what this refers to ira 10 22:13:27 * zak raises ira 10 22:13:31 ryan zak? ira 10 22:13:31 * Zapata raises ira 10 22:13:41 zak tracking of all previous versions of an article as it's edited ira 10 22:13:56 zak like wiki, cvs, subversion etc ira 10 22:13:59 zak <end> ira 10 22:13:59 * skep raises ira 10 22:14:10 ryan mmm zapata? ira 10 22:14:11 * Zapata confirms zak's interpretation <end> ira 10 22:14:30 ryan skep ira 10 22:14:46 skep some edits have to be made to black some private data/persnal data..so version control has to be use carefully.. ira 10 22:14:49 skep end ira 10 22:15:01 skep err..my endglish sucks today :) ira 10 22:15:05 * assata (assata@localhost) gehitu da #cms ira 10 22:15:26 ryan ok ira 10 22:15:56 ryan next is user notifications -- this goes with the profiles, i think, and means that we provide a mechanism for emailing users anonymously through the site ira 10 22:16:11 ryan i.e. giving users accounts and furthermore, doing email redirection for them as well ira 10 22:16:32 ryan so if someone wants to contact an article author, they can use the site to send a message ira 10 22:16:39 ryan and we fwd to the user's email address on file ira 10 22:16:45 ryan comments? ira 10 22:17:12 * chrisc raises ira 10 22:17:27 * txopi raises ira 10 22:17:44 <ryan> chrisc, txopi ira 10 22:17:51 chrisc will we want accounts to be associated with a email address as an anti-spam measure? I assume we will... ira 10 22:18:23 chrisc we can advise people to use email accounts with TLS like riseup.net for secutity and anonminity ira 10 22:18:50 chrisc i can't immediately see how we can't have email addresses with user accounts ira 10 22:18:51 chrisc end ira 10 22:18:56 <ryan> txopi ira 10 22:19:12 txopi we haven't talk almost nothing about pod/vodcasting. i don't have nothing to say about this but i just want to point out that perhaps it isn't a very need feature right now ira 10 22:19:24 txopi or not? ira 10 22:19:26 txopi end ira 10 22:19:46 * chrisc raises ira 10 22:19:50 ryan go ahead ira 10 22:20:13 chrisc good rss feeds, inc audio ones should cover pod casting? ira 10 22:20:15 chrisc end ira 10 22:20:29 ryan alright ira 10 22:20:41 ryan and i dont see this on the list actually ira 10 22:20:47 ryan we should add rss/syndication evaluation ira 10 22:20:56 * maxigas_ raises ira 10 22:21:02 ryan maxigas_ ira 10 22:21:06 * chrisc nods pod/vodcasting should be part of rss requirements ira 10 22:21:27 maxigas_ are we talking about incoming or outgoing rss or both? ira 10 22:21:39 * zak thinks rss was already on the WhatWeHave list ira 10 22:21:42 ryan both ira 10 22:21:51 maxigas_ then: ira 10 22:22:19 maxigas_ re incoming rss -- it's really important to be aware that we are not the only mass-scale peoples' media anymore, ira 10 22:22:48 maxigas_ and to try and capture and selectively import the content we find valuable in the blogoshere ira 10 22:23:08 maxigas_ through some sophisticated syndication and filtering system ira 10 22:23:16 maxigas_ <end> ira 10 22:23:21 * chrisc sounds good to me ira 10 22:23:22 ryan yeah, it'd be good ira 10 22:23:45 ryan next item is customizable skins ira 10 22:23:52 ryan which sfa and mir support now ira 10 22:23:57 maxigas_ we had a quite detailed plan worked out in theory in dijon, but i wouldn't explain it here. ira 10 22:23:58 * chrisc raises ira 10 22:24:09 * zak thinks this is the "customisability" we talked about in WhatWeHave ira 10 22:24:12 ryan we should figure out how the skins work (cookies, javascript, etc) as part of evaluating ira 10 22:24:16 ryan chrisc? ira 10 22:24:31 * Devin raise ira 10 22:24:43 chrisc customizable skins can be done via setting cookies with SSI or JS ira 10 22:24:55 chrisc so I would see this as a templating issue ira 10 22:25:10 chrisc and I would expect that we could make any CMS do this using CSS ira 10 22:25:13 * kwadronaut raises ira 10 22:25:19 * RobBoston raises ira 10 22:25:26 chrisc so it's no big deal since it shouldn't be a problem ira 10 22:25:27 chrisc end ira 10 22:25:36 ryan kwadronaut, then boston ira 10 22:25:51 kwadronaut i note that accessibility should be taken care of too: js and css can't always be used for people using text browsers or audio translation ira 10 22:26:03 kwadronaut (eg blind people) ira 10 22:26:05 kwadronaut end ira 10 22:26:07 * chrisc sure ira 10 22:26:21 * txopi wants to talk ira 10 22:26:33 * maxigas_ direct answer to kwadronaut ira 10 22:26:53 * chrisc raises ira 10 22:27:06 RobBoston I'd like to second kwad's concerns for section 508 compatibility and point out, ideally, we'd like to begin with valid XHTML code underneath, otherwise it's going to be some ugly CSS work. ira 10 22:27:06 RobBoston end ira 10 22:27:14 <ryan> txopi, maxi, chrisc ira 10 22:27:24 txopi if the content if done right, xhtml without css can be the "theme" for bling people ira 10 22:27:25 txopi end ira 10 22:28:04 * zak raises asking for clarification ira 10 22:28:07 ryan chrisc? ira 10 22:28:19 chrisc in addition to users setting CSS via cookies for customising the look you can set cookies with SSI for customising the content - the UK site does this even though we have static content ira 10 22:28:40 chrisc users can set the open or filtered newswire as their default on the uk site ira 10 22:29:04 chrisc i think that static pages with SSI still have enough flexibility to work ira 10 22:29:17 * Zapata would propose we move on, since we're already having a 3.5 h meeting ira 10 22:29:26 kwadronaut maxigas_ and zak? ira 10 22:29:28 maxigas_ if the content doesn't work out, i think it's possible to write css esp. for blind people. ira 10 22:29:32 ryan yeah, the point here is just that we want to evaluate how skins are done with the CMS ira 10 22:29:37 chrisc and that a totally dynamic site might still be preferable for mirroring but i realise that this is drifting onto things discussed before... ira 10 22:29:41 chrisc end ira 10 22:29:53 maxigas_ end ira 10 22:30:04 ryan ok move on then? ira 10 22:30:08 * zak withdraws ira 10 22:30:15 * Devin has quick note ira 10 22:30:24 ryan alright, next item is just accessibility/xhtml compliance ira 10 22:30:27 ryan which we sort of just discussed ira 10 22:30:31 ryan Devin? ira 10 22:30:34 Devin I see more than one types of customizing possible here, some more important ira 10 22:30:34 Devin than others. CSS mod of site colors - less important maybe; ira 10 22:30:34 Devin abilty to select more/less on areas/topics (eg google news) more important ira 10 22:30:34 Devin just note to include some detail on broad terms in specs as we write them ira 10 22:30:35 Devin end ira 10 22:31:21 ryan ok next item is GIS, would like to find something with these capabilities ira 10 22:31:24 ryan a couple CMS'es have it ira 10 22:31:43 * boud thinks we definitely need to do better than google news ira 10 22:31:48 ryan item after that is photo galleries ira 10 22:31:57 skep info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GIS ira 10 22:32:10 ryan which could be expanded to include a broad understanding of each CMS'es different "widget/media" handling ira 10 22:32:38 ryan next item is taken from dada, i think, which is adding license options to the open publishing process ira 10 22:32:38 * txopi agrees with ryan ira 10 22:32:53 * angdraug raises ira 10 22:33:06 ryan go ahead ira 10 22:33:20 angdraug I don't like licensing options: we should be as permissive about our content as possible ira 10 22:33:43 * zak raises ira 10 22:33:45 angdraug licensing quircks of GPL vs GFDL vs CC are not something I personally want to be involved with ira 10 22:33:47 angdraug end ira 10 22:34:01 ryan ok, some local imc's do want this feature, though ira 10 22:34:10 ryan zak? ira 10 22:34:16 * txopi wants to talk ira 10 22:34:27 zak just to say this is something on uk's wishlist, although i understand angdraug's reservations ira 10 22:34:29 zak <end> ira 10 22:34:38 <ryan> txopi ira 10 22:35:09 txopi there is a mailing list in indymedia to try to search the best license(s) for indymedia ira 10 22:35:16 txopi we haven't reached any consensus ira 10 22:35:28 * chrisc imc-license ira 10 22:35:44 txopi but it is clear that cc has a problem of compatibility ira 10 22:36:17 * boud http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-license/ ira 10 22:36:17 ryan ok ira 10 22:36:28 txopi licensin options like dada is good, but it also helps people to chooose a lot different licenses wich is bad for imc's ira 10 22:36:29 txopi end ira 10 22:36:39 * angdraug can add ira 10 22:36:45 ryan next item is image manipulation -- need to evaluate ira 10 22:36:50 * kwadronaut notes that there is a gismailinglist on indymedia too, for interested people, not 1 message yet...http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/listinfo/imc-maps ira 10 22:37:01 ryan each CMS'es functionality related to processing images on the server-side ira 10 22:37:03 * angdraug withdraws, ask me in private if interested ira 10 22:37:20 ryan this one is straight-forward ira 10 22:37:46 ryan next item is p2p integration -- many imc's have media published to bittorrent, for instance, making sure that the CMS can support this ira 10 22:37:56 ryan comments on this one? ira 10 22:38:03 chrisc good idea ira 10 22:38:20 ryan ok next one is redundant i think ira 10 22:38:24 ryan social networking/filtering ira 10 22:38:27 ryan that's already covered ira 10 22:38:39 txopi p2p could be used also for static content storage (instead of db redundancy) ira 10 22:38:40 ryan next is providing wysiwyg editing tools for users ira 10 22:39:00 * chrisc raises ira 10 22:39:01 ryan so, how the CMS provides this and if it is javascript, an applet, etc ira 10 22:39:03 ryan chrisc? ira 10 22:39:18 * txopi wants to extend a bit about p2p ira 10 22:39:24 chrisc there are free js wysiwyg editors that work wit texareas ira 10 22:39:43 chrisc and these could probably be added to any cms via the admin templates ira 10 22:39:52 chrisc so it's not a big deal imho ira 10 22:40:10 chrisc end ira 10 22:40:29 * Devin has done it ira 10 22:40:39 ryan ok in the interest of time, now approaching 4 hours, i think we should move on ira 10 22:40:42 ryan not go back to p2p ira 10 22:41:01 txopi if instead of using rsync for mirrors, we set a friend-to-friend network, we could create a very powerfull mirroring system difficult to silent ira 10 22:41:02 txopi ok ira 10 22:41:04 txopi no more ira 10 22:41:10 ryan heheh ira 10 22:41:24 ryan next item is tagging, which is another concept stolen from social networking sites ira 10 22:41:33 ryan i think most people know what tagging is ira 10 22:41:46 ryan and can evaluate how its implemented in the CMS'es ira 10 22:42:05 ryan next item is that we need to evaluate how the spam controls are ira 10 22:42:09 elisa no, can you explain ? ira 10 22:42:13 elisa sorry ryan ira 10 22:42:19 Zapata I'll explain in private ira 10 22:42:23 Zapata go on, ryan ira 10 22:42:24 ryan ok, thanks, zapata ira 10 22:42:28 elisa :) ira 10 22:42:52 ryan next item is evaluating ease of installation, if there is a web-based install, etc ira 10 22:43:22 ryan and finally, we want to keep cross-site search in mind as a frequently-requested-feature ira 10 22:43:33 ryan so, given that entire list ira 10 22:43:47 ryan and this part we should try and be disciplined about, keeping it brief and relevant ira 10 22:43:49 ryan again, 4+ hours :) ira 10 22:43:55 ryan but is there anything else that should be on this list? ira 10 22:44:07 * boud raises ira 10 22:44:13 ryan go ahead ira 10 22:44:37 * chrisc raises ira 10 22:44:41 * Devin raise ira 10 22:44:46 boud IMHO "easier install" should mean that the CMS gets into the standard distributions (debian, gentoo, i guess also redhat, etc.) ira 10 22:44:53 boud so that people can type: ira 10 22:45:04 boud aptitude install [IMC-CMS] ira 10 22:45:20 boud answer a few questions and then they have a running system with reasonably safe default values ira 10 22:45:23 * maxigas_ agrees ira 10 22:45:41 boud just like apache for example ira 10 22:45:42 boud end ira 10 22:45:46 ryan chrisc ira 10 22:45:57 chrisc i also agree, distro packages are more important than being able to install without root ira 10 22:46:14 chrisc install without root also implies no controlls over logging ira 10 22:46:31 chrisc i'm happy for root access to be needed to install indy cms's ira 10 22:46:32 chrisc end ira 10 22:46:36 ryan devin ira 10 22:46:39 Devin we had mentioned some evalutation of the existing community for the cms ira 10 22:46:40 Devin end ira 10 22:46:48 ryan ah, good point ira 10 22:46:51 ryan that should be on the list ira 10 22:47:12 ryan ok, last chance for things that could go on this list ira 10 22:47:37 chrisc the list is where? ira 10 22:47:45 ryan http://techmeet.sarava.org/English/CMSWhatWeWant ira 10 22:47:49 ryan not updated with this discussion though ira 10 22:48:23 * chrisc can't think of anything else ira 10 22:48:49 ryan ok so lets move on to the CMS'es ira 10 22:48:55 ryan so, for reference, there is this: ira 10 22:48:59 * chrisc notices that Alster doesn't understand Unicode ;-) ira 10 22:49:07 ryan http://www.cmsmatrix.org/ ira 10 22:49:11 * maxigas_ raises ira 10 22:49:17 * Alster agrees ira 10 22:49:39 ryan but i thought we could begin with obvious ones -- so, if there is anyone here who knows a cms or already knows a cms they wanna install to check out ira 10 22:49:45 ryan mm maxigas_ ? ira 10 22:49:53 maxigas_ i was talking with paddy the other day about print/indycms, and we thought that: ira 10 22:49:57 Devin damn there are a lot of cms's.. ira 10 22:50:17 * angdraug wrote samizdat :) ira 10 22:50:20 maxigas_ it would be good to have some button to export a printable fanzin from the latest articles of the site via a one-button interface. ira 10 22:50:48 ryan soooo ira 10 22:50:54 maxigas_ feaute name = newspaper print export. ira 10 22:50:57 maxigas_ end ira 10 22:51:01 ryan so i'm gonna put something together for sf-active, nod to kwadronaut's email on imc-sf-active ira 10 22:51:18 * Zapata suggests zope, plone, dhrupal ira 10 22:51:31 * Zapata also proposes to start with a limited list and expand in a next meeting ira 10 22:51:34 ryan yes, i was about to say those are the 3 most commonly heard ira 10 22:51:35 txopi wordpress? ira 10 22:51:40 ryan yeah wordpress ira 10 22:51:57 * pietro notes zope is not a cms per se, but an application server ira 10 22:51:58 ryan i think we start with those ira 10 22:52:02 * chrisc suggests bricolage ira 10 22:52:14 ryan so these are the big ones, right? ira 10 22:52:22 * Devin likes perl ;-) ira 10 22:52:23 ryan lets see if we have the labor to get demo sites installed for these ira 10 22:52:25 boud well, zope corporation seems to be big ira 10 22:52:29 * Alster notes plone is a zope based cms ira 10 22:52:37 ryan i would install plone somewhere, actually ira 10 22:52:40 A-Kaser typo3 ? ira 10 22:52:45 ryan so i can do plone + sf-active ira 10 22:53:04 ryan volunteers for drupal, wordpress, bricolage, typo3? ira 10 22:53:15 * chrisc zope/plone have a *big* overhead in terms of server power needed for page generation ira 10 22:53:20 RobBoston I'd like to be on Drupal ira 10 22:53:33 * RobBoston agrees with chrisc on Plone ira 10 22:54:10 chrisc do we have a dev server for doing this on? ira 10 22:54:32 A-Kaser on vserver no ? ira 10 22:54:33 Devin chrisc: bricolage or shall I do it? I have test servers at my disposal, and a static IP at home ira 10 22:54:42 Alster somene from imc-drupal-dev may be interested in joining in the drupal research team ira 10 22:54:45 ryan chrisc: i think everyone finds their own dev server :) ira 10 22:55:06 chrisc Devin: i'm really bust with my second 3 week old kid so if you could that would be cool though I'd like to do it sometime anyhow... ira 10 22:55:10 chrisc busy ira 10 22:55:10 Zapata Alster: and_ might want to ira 10 22:55:33 * Devin will do bricolage and invite help from others ira 10 22:55:37 init I know typo3, I can write something about it, but in short, forget it, end of software-lifecycle... like a tanker dead in the water, worst of all, php. ira 10 22:55:41 ryan ok, this is also something we can coordinate on-list... ira 10 22:55:44 * gdm raises... ira 10 22:55:46 ryan perhaps too ambitious for this meeting ira 10 22:55:54 gdm might be able to offer dev vserver soon ira 10 22:55:58 ryan ok ok, lets get ordered ira 10 22:56:07 * nessie (nessie@xxx.xxx) gehitu da #cms ira 10 22:56:12 ryan so, listen, we have a common understanding of requirements ira 10 22:56:16 txopi i can analyze wordpress ira 10 22:56:28 Alster A-Kaser and Alster will look at typo3 ira 10 22:56:34 ryan and we have the start of a list of cms evaluations/evaluators ira 10 22:56:37 ryan that list now is: ira 10 22:56:47 ryan ryan - plone and sf-active (php/pear) ira 10 22:56:52 <ryan> txopi - wordpress ira 10 22:56:57 Zapata http://techmeet.sarava.org/English/CMSSurveyList ira 10 22:57:06 ryan Alster/A-Kaser - typo3 ira 10 22:57:08 Alster sorry, Init, A-Kaser and Alster will look at typo3 ;) ira 10 22:57:37 ryan there you go, that list is good ira 10 22:57:39 ryan on the wiki ira 10 22:57:53 ryan i suggest we continue discussing on the list about this effort ira 10 22:58:01 Zapata let's schedule a next meeting ira 10 22:58:06 ryan speaking of which, ira 10 22:58:13 ryan again, send a blank email to cms@techmeet.org ira 10 22:58:21 ryan and you'll get on the list ira 10 22:58:24 Zapata and let's try to have the first survey results ready by that meeting ira 10 22:58:24 ryan in a few ira 10 22:58:43 ryan i suggest meeting again in 7 days ira 10 22:58:55 Zapata fine by me ira 10 22:58:56 A-Kaser to typo3 I will can make a vserver on integrity (same server as www2.imc.uk ira 10 22:59:06 A-Kaser it will be public to make the test ira 10 22:59:14 * chrisc wonders if a irc channel per cms might be of use ira 10 22:59:16 * ga will help txopi with wordpress ira 10 22:59:19 ryan i think we do that -- if you cant make the meeting, we still coordinate on-list and things will keep going ira 10 22:59:20 boud i put samizdat on the list: http://techmeet.sarava.org/English/CMSSurveyList ira 10 22:59:35 ryan ok ok ira 10 22:59:40 ryan so the idea is that we'll meet again next sunday, same time ira 10 23:00:08 txopi next monday is ok for me ira 10 23:00:09 ryan and in the meantime, coordinate more re: first-round cms evaluations on the mailing list ira 10 23:00:09 alex euh, init does _not_ want to be on typo3 list :) ira 10 23:00:14 <Zapata> sunday, txopi ira 10 23:00:28 * zak will probably be offline then but lurking ira 10 23:00:32 txopi ops, sorry :-) sunday! ira 10 23:00:45 * boud reload http://techmeet.sarava.org/English/CMSSurveyList ira 10 23:00:52 Zapata thanks everybody for their attendance ira 10 23:00:54 boud we have noone for zope ira 10 23:01:02 Zapata it'll probably be me then ;-) ira 10 23:01:16 chrisc zope on it's own isn't a cms though? ira 10 23:01:20 Zapata well ira 10 23:01:24 init http://www.opensourcecms.com/ lists a lot of online-demos of CMSs ira 10 23:01:26 Zapata the survey can be held against it anyway ira 10 23:01:33 Zapata thanks, init ira 10 23:01:40 txopi mmmh ira 10 23:01:51 ryan ah thats the site i was looking for, init! ira 10 23:01:55 ryan yeah we can use this to build out the CMS list ira 10 23:01:59 txopi Zapata, i think we should analyze plone ira 10 23:01:59 kwadronaut a framework more, could use plone have a look at translation.i.o -> using zope ira 10 23:02:00 ryan cuz you can look at a demo that they have ira 10 23:02:16 kwadronaut Zapata: you could ask if linksrhein feels like helping you with zope ira 10 23:02:24 * maxigas_ notes nobody raised the ruby-on-rails hype ira 10 23:02:26 Zapata I will then, kwadro ira 10 23:02:28 txopi Zapata, if you analyce zope, ruby-on-rails should also be analyzed ira 10 23:02:38 maxigas_ hahaha ira 10 23:02:47 boud is there a public archive of the mailing list cms@techmeet.org ? ira 10 23:03:15 Zapata why, boud? ira 10 23:03:22 ryan boud: its a mailman mailing list... so it has an archive. url will be in the mail you get ira 10 23:03:36 boud ryan: ok, thanks :) ira 10 23:03:40 * chrisc has sent 2 subscribe emails and had nothing back ira 10 23:03:50 ryan you will not get anything back ira 10 23:03:58 chrisc ah ha :-) ira 10 23:04:01 ryan just send the email and you'll be added later today ira 10 23:04:05 chrisc k ira 10 23:04:07 chrisc ta ira 10 23:04:09 * luisfelipe (luisfelipe@xxx.xxx) has left #cms ira 10 23:04:19 * maxigas_ sent an mail as well ira 10 23:04:47 chrisc what about opening a irc channel per cms? ira 10 23:04:54 txopi pfff ira 10 23:04:55 Alster maybe sending email to cms-subscribe@techmeet.org would have been better then ;) ira 10 23:05:07 txopi chrisc, no pleeeease ira 10 23:05:21 boud we probably have enough channels ira 10 23:05:34 Alster chrisc: i don't expect traffic to be _that_ high on this channel when the meeting is over and along the next week. ira 10 23:05:41 chrisc hehe, ok, i was only thinking about coordniating the installs etc... ira 10 23:05:47 txopi Zapata: i don't understand how can zope be analized like the cms's ira 10 23:05:58 boud 10 volunteers here: http://techmeet.sarava.org/English/CMSSurveyList ira 10 23:06:07 boud 25 people here: http://techmeet.sarava.org/English/CMSWhoWeHave ira 10 23:06:18 elisa http://listas.sarava.org/wws/info/techmeet ira 10 23:06:25 ryan elisa - nah, nah ira 10 23:06:26 txopi chrisc, we can use 3cms for that ira 10 23:06:32 txopi #cms ira 10 23:06:34 ryan elisa - not that list :) ira 10 23:06:36 <Zapata> txopi: I'll think of something ira 10 23:06:49 elisa no ira 10 23:07:09 txopi Zapata: i don't see it a good idea ira 10 23:07:14 elisa so why we still have that one? ira 10 23:07:38 txopi perhaps you can study plone and add information about zope framework ira 10 23:08:00 * chrisc doesn't have a problem with zope being looked at ira 10 23:08:04 txopi if we analyze zope, we have to analyze ruby-on-rails too ira 10 23:08:13 kwadronaut and other frameworks ira 10 23:08:17 Zapata I think ruby-on-rails is less of a CMS framework than zope ira 10 23:08:23 txopi but the terms must be diferent from cms features ira 10 23:08:27 Zapata but hey, the survey would be to find that out ira 10 23:08:38 Zapata sure, you have a point ira 10 23:08:38 * chrisc agrees with Zapata ira 10 23:08:45 Zapata maybe it should be in a separate list ira 10 23:09:17 txopi Zapata, zope has more services, but it also works more slowly ira 10 23:09:17 chrisc i guess it depends how much of the cms we build ourselves, perhaps a seperate list makes sense ira 10 23:09:39 Zapata anyway, we'll see ira 10 23:09:48 Zapata the important thing is we're doing stuff ira 10 23:09:52 chrisc :-) ira 10 23:10:17 kwadronaut i wasnt here in the beginning, i was wondering if someone will try to summarize a bit? ira 10 23:10:21 skep where can I find a summaray of todays meeting? ;-) ira 10 23:10:26 skep *summary ira 10 23:10:27 ryan i'll write a summary ira 10 23:10:32 skep cool ira 10 23:10:36 ryan i could have it up by tomorrow latest ira 10 23:10:42 skep take your time ira 10 23:10:55 txopi i think we should put the logs of this meeting available somewhere ira 10 23:11:03 * nessie has quit (Quit: ShadowIRC 1.1 PPC) ira 10 23:11:06 skep i don't have an irc log so..ah..thats good too ira 10 23:11:07 chrisc yeah, but remember to strip ip's first ira 10 23:11:09 ryan i can post the logs as well ira 10 23:11:17 Zapata I've prepared wiki pages for the logs and the summary ira 10 23:11:30 Zapata I'll work on the survey result template ira 10 23:11:38 txopi perfect ira 10 23:11:41 * boud agrees with chrisc on removing IPs of people who show their IPs ira 10 23:11:45 Zapata will ryan edit the what we want list or should I ira 10 23:12:03 ryan i'll do it ira 10 23:12:11 alex so is the next meeting same time next sunday? ira 10 23:12:16 chrisc yes ira 10 23:13:54 skep you guys rock :) ira 10 23:14:40 kwadronaut skep: easy huh ira 10 23:14:44 boud ryan: thanks for moderating :) ira 10 23:14:53 maxigas_ yea this is good process thx for everyone ira 10 23:15:07 ryan cool ira 10 23:15:13 alex now who's got the beer? ira 10 23:15:13 txopi he he ira 10 23:15:17 * kwadronaut thanks people here too and excuses for being late ira 10 23:15:20 ryan <- already drunk ira 10 23:15:24 kwadronaut i do have the beer though ira 10 23:15:31 skep I got beer ira 10 23:15:39 skep still 2 bottles in the fridge.. ira 10 23:15:40 boud is there syndication of the beer set up?