English /
CMS20060930MeetingLog
ARGH LAYOUT: (available here for now for easy download: http://ana.aktivix.org/indymedia/cms) Meeting 2006 Sep 30
CMS meeting saturday september 30th 1400 UTC in #cms | Please Read: http://techmeet.sarava.org/English/Notes | http://cats.revolt.org/cats-vii/indymedia/ | ttp://techmeet.sarava.org/English/CMSProposal | Meeting logs: http://sindominio.net/~txopi/20060917-irc-log-cms.log
Sep 30 14:26:32 * Topic for #cms set by Zapata!Max@localhost at Sat Sep 23 23:36:23 2006
Sep 30 14:42:01 ryan hi
Sep 30 14:56:35 dannyp hello
Sep 30 14:58:31 Zapata hey
Sep 30 14:59:32 shensche cheers, dannyp
Sep 30 15:00:05 dannyp I assume everyone else is getting their water/tea/juice/coffee/beer ready as well
Sep 30 15:00:46 magduv hi all
Sep 30 15:01:08 * Zapata has changed the topic to: next CMS meeting NOW in #cms | Please Read: http://techmeet.sarava.org/English/Notes | http://cats.revolt.org/cats-vii/indymedia/ | ttp://techmeet.sarava.org/English/CMSProposal | Meeting logs: http://sindominio.net/~txopi/20060917-irc-log-cms.log
Sep 30 15:07:59 Zapata let's wait 5 more minutes
Sep 30 15:13:55 magduv 5 minutes passed.. let's start
Sep 30 15:14:05 Zapata yeah
Sep 30 15:14:15 Zapata let's arrange a facilitator and an agenda...
Sep 30 15:14:37 Zapata the agenda would be something like:
Sep 30 15:14:47 Zapata 0 introduction?
Sep 30 15:14:47 Zapata 1 reports on activities last 2 weeks
Sep 30 15:14:47 Zapata 2 plan activities for the next week: other cmses, other people reviewing them
Sep 30 15:14:47 Zapata 3 schedule a next meeting
Sep 30 15:14:51 Zapata ?
Sep 30 15:15:06 toya <-want to give a brief info about a cms some kids from brasil are creating and could be presented here as one option as well
Sep 30 15:15:38 Zapata let's make that part of agenda item 2
Sep 30 15:15:46 toya ok
Sep 30 15:16:34 magduv excuse me.. i red all documents i managed to find but it's still unclear for me - was really decided which language to use for new CMS or discussion stoped on using existing CMS?
Sep 30 15:17:00 boud we're nowhere near making decisions...
Sep 30 15:17:11 boud and certainly not on languages
Sep 30 15:18:03 magduv ?
Sep 30 15:18:50 boud we're having a general discussion with a certain amount of structure
Sep 30 15:18:53 elisa the point is that we don't think un this part already
Sep 30 15:19:00 ryan magduv: no. was not decided yet.
Sep 30 15:19:53 boud we haven't discussed how a decision will actually be made, i think the idea is that with sufficient information, consensus might be easy...
Sep 30 15:20:07 boud or rather, sufficiently well-organised, checked information
Sep 30 15:20:37 dannyp so... agenda and facilitator?
Sep 30 15:20:52 toya so hey
Sep 30 15:20:56 toya who will facilitade?
Sep 30 15:21:05 alex do we really need another introduction? if so, let's do it quickly
Sep 30 15:21:36 toya i dont think so
Sep 30 15:21:42 ryan YES we do
Sep 30 15:21:48 toya hehe
Sep 30 15:21:48 ryan or rather
Sep 30 15:21:55 ryan everyone from austrlia, say "AI"
Sep 30 15:21:57 kwadronaut so hi Gb
Sep 30 15:22:00 toya cool kwadronaut
Sep 30 15:22:11 Gb hi
Sep 30 15:22:17 toya heheheh
Sep 30 15:22:17 * alex imc germany, mir user/admin/sysad, did some documentation, doesn't like php :)
Sep 30 15:22:20 Zapata everybody from australia say crikey!
Sep 30 15:22:58 toya hehehe
Sep 30 15:23:03 * Fab ex-imc austria, fed up with dada, knows a bit of php, just here for listening :P
Sep 30 15:23:10 shensche everybody from Aotearoa say 'kiwi'. i am a techie from imc New Zealand
Sep 30 15:23:47 ryan <- san francisco
Sep 30 15:23:48 jebba i'm jeff. i sysadmin ahimsa*. I'm pretty much lurking on this one. I should have lots of vserver space here in a month or so if people need devel/test space. <done>
Sep 30 15:24:07 * kwadronaut imc .nl TT and just got engaged with the docs collectiv started on spip with libertinus.
Sep 30 15:24:13 * Zapata is from indy.nl and mir-coders... <end>
Sep 30 15:24:22 * toya imc brasil we use mir user/admin/sysad, also done documentation --nolangugue--Yet!
Sep 30 15:24:33 Gb hi jebba
Sep 30 15:24:34 * dannyp imc pittsburgh (although I'm living in the city of DC these days, I occasionally do sysadmin work for pittsburgh from here, and looking to do more), has spent time trying to keep servers with sf-active and dadaIMC online, and I spend my days doing PHP+mysql work and have been known to do javascript/ajax/web2.0ish things for work
Sep 30 15:24:36 * boud imc poland - torun and new-imc
Sep 30 15:24:58 magduv i'm magduv from ru-imc.
Sep 30 15:25:44 Gb i'm Gb from it-imc
Sep 30 15:25:52 * zak is from imc uk, and one of the admins for traven (mir hosting server)
Sep 30 15:26:11 shensche i have a Python-script lying around that converts the articles and users from Dada .98.2 to Drupal 4.7.2, if anybody is interested. does not work with Dada .99.3 (yet)
Sep 30 15:26:12 * gdm uk and global
Sep 30 15:26:18 * gdm mainly just lurking
Sep 30 15:27:10 ryan ok is someone moderating?
Sep 30 15:27:12 ryan introduction time is over
Sep 30 15:27:22 kwadronaut *little remark* anyone logging this meeting and eventually making a summary?
Sep 30 15:27:31 toya i am
Sep 30 15:27:34 toya loggin
Sep 30 15:27:37 toya not the summary
Sep 30 15:27:39 toya :)
Sep 30 15:27:39 * boud notes that "global" is really only "semiglobal" http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-communication/2006-September/0927-vo.html
Sep 30 15:27:54 toya boud: that is still on discussion
Sep 30 15:27:56 toya ;)
Sep 30 15:28:00 * matthias imc-sweden, mostly here to listen
Sep 30 15:28:02 ryan ok i'm going to moderate
Sep 30 15:28:11 ryan now
Sep 30 15:28:16 * guido from santiago imc, im here to listen
Sep 30 15:28:24 ryan who has something they want to update the group on for agenda item #2, which is updates from the last week?
Sep 30 15:28:34 ryan the list so far is: toya, ryan
Sep 30 15:28:39 ryan anyone else have something to add?
Sep 30 15:28:44 ryan just say "yes"
Sep 30 15:28:45 kwadronaut kwadronaut:
Sep 30 15:29:01 * ekes here while I can be -- imc-uk (mir), imc-york (drupal)
Sep 30 15:29:46 ryan ok, so 2 updates from the last week
Sep 30 15:29:51 ryan toya, want to talk about it?
Sep 30 15:30:29 toya ok
Sep 30 15:32:04 toya in brasil 3 kids started this cms from zero is with php and perl it includes some other features that envolves jabber to give more features for the users the whole goal of this project is to have virtual communities builded with those features on a cms that inst centralized..which can be moved around easily
Sep 30 15:32:15 toya they are working on a presentation about it
Sep 30 15:32:29 toya now that they feel they are on a step where more ppl can jump in and help
Sep 30 15:32:30 * mish is from imc uk - mostly lurking so far but very interested
Sep 30 15:32:43 toya this can be prepare by the end of octuber thought
Sep 30 15:33:05 toya but i can bring them to the next meeting to present it at least here on irc
Sep 30 15:33:20 toya if ppl think it would be a good idea
Sep 30 15:33:22 toya end
Sep 30 15:34:29 jebba i'm very happy to hear about brasil/jabber because i think that's going to play quite a nice roll and ties into VoIP/jingle (ala googletalk). Just FYI <end>
Sep 30 15:35:11 magduv toya: for presentation better to make simple web page.. not irc
Sep 30 15:35:19 ryan alright cool, so maybe next time brazil kids will come with the cms info
Sep 30 15:35:36 toya magduv: ok
Sep 30 15:35:38 toya ryan: ok
Sep 30 15:36:01 ryan ok, next update is me -- only to say that in san francisco we have a dev server we are putting zope/plone/etc on
Sep 30 15:36:07 ryan then people can play with the installation/demo/whatever
Sep 30 15:36:35 ryan it could be used for other installations but for at least the next 10 days or so, we want it to be only zope
Sep 30 15:36:49 shensche perhaps they can try to integrate into the structure on http://techmeet.sarava.org/English/CMSSurveyList?
Sep 30 15:37:03 ryan should be on there..
Sep 30 15:37:05 ryan actually
Sep 30 15:37:07 shensche oops.. @toya :)
Sep 30 15:37:08 * boud agrees with shensche - it would help
Sep 30 15:37:20 toya shensche: i will pass the link to them ;)
Sep 30 15:37:59 ryan the only other update from me is that my deadline for finishing sf-imc changes to sf-active (adding captcha and moving sf-imc into sf-active)
Sep 30 15:38:04 * toya also says that they heard bout indymedia idea of working on a cms and that is why they asked me to put this up on this meeting ;)
Sep 30 15:38:05 ryan is october 11th midnight :)
Sep 30 15:38:08 ryan soooo
Sep 30 15:38:21 ryan it wont be until after this that the sf-active cms report is done
Sep 30 15:38:29 ryan thats my update
Sep 30 15:38:38 ryan does anyone else have an update?
Sep 30 15:38:45 Zapata so
Sep 30 15:38:52 Zapata I've been doing slave labor for the past 2 weeks
Sep 30 15:38:59 Zapata and not been able to work on this project
Sep 30 15:39:08 Zapata I intend to get back into it coming weeks
Sep 30 15:39:09 Zapata <end>
Sep 30 15:39:27 ryan kwadro?
Sep 30 15:39:43 kwadronaut spip evalutation has been going on a little, but because we're two doing this, but not collaboratively, i see that it's extremely subjective, and i'd like to ask people to be specific in their reports
Sep 30 15:39:49 kwadronaut giving examples etc.
Sep 30 15:40:01 kwadronaut not "this will be in the next release comments"
Sep 30 15:40:11 kwadronaut i think that's easier to compare afterwards
Sep 30 15:40:13 kwadronaut <end>
Sep 30 15:40:16 * Zapata agrees wholeheartedly
Sep 30 15:40:40 ryan wait, what?
Sep 30 15:40:44 ryan this will be in the next release comments?
Sep 30 15:40:47 ryan - i dont understand that part
Sep 30 15:41:08 kwadronaut instead of saying this feature doesnt exist
Sep 30 15:41:21 kwadronaut saying but this will be soon implemented
Sep 30 15:41:37 ryan oh i see
Sep 30 15:41:41 kwadronaut because you could fill the whole report with that sort of comments
Sep 30 15:41:48 kwadronaut understandable now?
Sep 30 15:41:50 ryan on the spip evaluation, libertinus == libertino ?
Sep 30 15:41:54 ryan from uruguay?
Sep 30 15:42:10 kwadronaut i think so yes
Sep 30 15:42:16 ryan ok well
Sep 30 15:42:18 ryan any other updates?
Sep 30 15:43:53 ryan ok so next item is stuff to plan for next week
Sep 30 15:44:03 ryan first -- can someone who admins imc-cms list check to see if there are pending requests?
Sep 30 15:44:08 ryan i still havent gotten a mail from this....
Sep 30 15:44:14 * Zapata will
Sep 30 15:44:19 * Zapata will right now
Sep 30 15:44:26 * ekes has been admin it
Sep 30 15:44:34 ekes mails waiting have been through
Sep 30 15:44:39 Zapata ah, cool
Sep 30 15:44:58 ryan ok, i would add an item here -- which is should we set a deadline for adding new CMS'es to evaluate?
Sep 30 15:45:03 ryan or a deadline for CMS'es to be evaluated?
Sep 30 15:45:11 ryan and if someone hasnt evaluated a CMS by that time, we find someone else to do it?
Sep 30 15:45:22 ryan maybe this isnt the right meeting to have this discussion
Sep 30 15:45:31 ryan but, at some point, we have to come up with a timeline or things will drag on forever
Sep 30 15:45:39 ryan what do yall think of this?
Sep 30 15:45:39 ryan end
Sep 30 15:45:43 magduv does anybody thought on following? new cms could become just another cms techies have to maintain because nobody would force migration from present cmss.. so we could get one more problem instead of relief
Sep 30 15:45:46 * Zapata raises
Sep 30 15:45:56 ryan zapata, go
Sep 30 15:46:36 Zapata I think we should set an informal deadline for reports...
Sep 30 15:47:00 ryan ekes -- can you check it again? i subscribed again just now
Sep 30 15:47:14 Zapata like after n weeks there should be some sort of social control process
Sep 30 15:47:25 Zapata need any help, should someone else take over
Sep 30 15:47:31 Zapata that's what I would propose
Sep 30 15:47:32 Zapata <end>
Sep 30 15:48:07 toya i think we should also think of migration like if we pick a cms that will be a pain in the ass to migrate the existing ones to it?
Sep 30 15:48:23 * Zapata raises in response to toya
Sep 30 15:48:25 toya maybe should be a topic on the evaluation
Sep 30 15:48:28 toya or something
Sep 30 15:48:31 toya end
Sep 30 15:48:33 ryan zap
Sep 30 15:48:48 Zapata I would suggest we do that in a second round with a short list of cmses
Sep 30 15:49:06 Zapata if we find a great cms with a hard migration process... it may still be worth the effort...
Sep 30 15:49:28 Zapata also making a good estimate on how difficult a migration will be is rather time consuming...
Sep 30 15:49:30 toya ;)
Sep 30 15:49:37 Zapata and shouldn't happen imo with all cmses we consider now...
Sep 30 15:49:38 Zapata <end>
Sep 30 15:49:53 ryan dannyp, ryan
Sep 30 15:49:59 dannyp in response to magduv, if the new CMS is more easily installed and maintained, then it will be easier to find groups willing to host it and harder to find groups willing to host codebases that are a strain on resources (e.g. dadaIMC)
Sep 30 15:50:04 dannyp end
Sep 30 15:50:29 ryan ok so i agree that we should prod stagnant evaluations as zapata suggests
Sep 30 15:50:36 magduv the problem is that ther still be probably many collectives using existing cmss which would need help in maintaining
Sep 30 15:50:38 ryan but overall it would be nice to have a timeline that says something
Sep 30 15:50:47 ryan by the end of Q4 2006 we will have a short list of CMS'es
Sep 30 15:50:55 ryan and schedule things to meet this deadline
Sep 30 15:51:14 ryan anyway, i will be pressing to do this through the first couple weeks of october :)
Sep 30 15:51:23 ryan end, anyone else?
Sep 30 15:51:29 ryan on this topic or any new topic for the next week?
Sep 30 15:51:44 * boud raises
Sep 30 15:51:56 ryan go ahead
Sep 30 15:51:56 * kwadronaut does the funny handsign to agree with Zapata on deadlines
Sep 30 15:52:22 toya hehe
Sep 30 15:52:48 boud i think there's something major we forgot about as a set of criteria for evaluating cmses
Sep 30 15:53:08 boud angdraug briefly stated it here: http://sindominio.net/~txopi/20060910-irc-log-cms.log we need to add open-minded developer community to the list of requirements
Sep 30 15:53:18 magduv dannyp: you look at the hosting i look at the collective.. ru-imc once migrated from Active to Dada couple years ago and we are still not in good form
Sep 30 15:53:53 magduv and we would think twice before next migration.. and probably other collectives who experienced migration too
Sep 30 15:54:00 * kwadronaut raises in response to boud
Sep 30 15:54:13 boud i think of this criterion as maybe something like "social criteria of the development communities of the software package and the underlying language/packages [java/zope/ruby]"
Sep 30 15:55:06 * dannyp raises in response to magduv
Sep 30 15:55:08 boud and possible long term dependencies, getting too close to the US army, and so on (i know GPL is free), but i think we need to at least list these criteria and have them available for decision-making
Sep 30 15:55:13 boud </end>
Sep 30 15:55:53 kwadronaut boud: i think that if there are valuable/necessary remarks to be made about the devolpment community of this or that cms, it can be added to the box about "healty community"
Sep 30 15:56:00 kwadronaut healthy means different things.
Sep 30 15:56:04 kwadronaut so i think its already in
Sep 30 15:56:04 * boud s/i know GPL is free/i know GPL is free, but nevertheless getting close to the US army is worrying/
Sep 30 15:56:25 ryan oh sorry
Sep 30 15:56:40 * Zapata reraises in response to boud/kwadro
Sep 30 15:56:41 ryan i stopped listening at "open-minded"
Sep 30 15:56:42 ryan :)
Sep 30 15:56:45 ryan ok ok
Sep 30 15:56:59 ryan is there a stack?
Sep 30 15:57:06 ryan zapata, just go
Sep 30 15:57:09 Zapata you tell us, mr. facilitator
Sep 30 15:57:11 kwadronaut dannyp: still had
Sep 30 15:57:12 Zapata ok
Sep 30 15:57:32 kwadronaut first dannyp than Zapata iirc
Sep 30 15:57:42 Zapata my point would be that "social criteria of a development community" is even more subjective than the other features
Sep 30 15:57:55 Zapata so I would suggest we do not spend too much time in this phase on this
Sep 30 15:58:01 Zapata but leave it to the short listed cmses
Sep 30 15:58:07 Zapata <end>
Sep 30 16:00:20 ryan after boud, dannpy will reply to magduv
Sep 30 16:01:09 boud kwad said we already have it in "healthy community", but i think it would probably be possible to list a set of several different parameters (e.g. is it a corporation? does it boast about selling to the US army?) - i also agree with zapata that it's relatively more subjective,
Sep 30 16:01:42 boud but on the other hand it can be as objective as NPOV (neutral point of view) in wikipedia
Sep 30 16:02:00 boud so maybe rather it's qualitative rather than quantitative info
Sep 30 16:02:18 boud anyway, zapata is just suggesting so that can't hurt
Sep 30 16:02:31 boud </end>
Sep 30 16:02:36 ryan ok dannyp, then ryan
Sep 30 16:02:38 dannyp magduv: specifically with the case of dadaIMC, the strain it puts on database servers makes it a difficult choice for collectives to host long term. This is why sites like New York and DC have problems under high load despite having large amounts of computing power available to them. if the new CMS is easy to host and has reasonable technical requirements, then I imagine that collectives that currently host dadaIMC would be eager to encourage migration to the new I
Sep 30 16:02:58 dannyp which maybe suggests a problem with the approach as we have it now - to find features we like first, and then try to make it work
Sep 30 16:03:30 dannyp we need to be evaluating, from the beginning, is this sustainable in terms of technical resources (computing power, developers) - discussion of things like platforms and languages can't happen too soon IMO.
Sep 30 16:03:34 dannyp end
Sep 30 16:03:51 * Zapata raises in response to dannyp
Sep 30 16:04:17 ryan so, on a lot of these topics, i agree with zapata that they be pushed into the second phase of evaluation
Sep 30 16:04:24 ryan although people doing evaluations are of course free to report on them in advance
Sep 30 16:04:42 ryan if mambo is run by a lyndon larouche committee, let's find out in the first phase
Sep 30 16:05:24 ryan but in terms of migration and server hosting, a powerful CMS could dictate that we redesign our hosting configuration or how current server operators collaborate
Sep 30 16:05:51 ryan like zapata said, if the CMS is good enough, reconfigurating server setups or developing a challenging migration procedure could be worth it
Sep 30 16:06:20 ryan and, let's also not forget, that some of the issues being talked about by magduv and dannyp are already on the first-run list, i think
Sep 30 16:06:43 ryan ok- thats it for me, and i would propose for this topic... rest could be on the list since we still need to decide on a next meeting
Sep 30 16:06:48 ryan zapata, do you have something to add? you are on the stack
Sep 30 16:06:59 Zapata well
Sep 30 16:07:02 Zapata if I may add
Sep 30 16:07:15 Zapata that indeed the scalability and performance characteristics are on the list
Sep 30 16:07:38 Zapata <end>
Sep 30 16:07:51 ryan ok
Sep 30 16:08:01 ryan i think it makes sense to move to the final agenda item, which is setting up next meeting
Sep 30 16:08:07 ryan yeah? or is there more to discuss today?
Sep 30 16:08:44 kwadronaut i'd like to propose oscailt to to evaluate
Sep 30 16:08:52 ryan ah ok
Sep 30 16:09:03 ryan well -- you can put it on the wiki and assign it to yourself :)
Sep 30 16:09:05 kwadronaut i don't think i've got capacities (time) to do it myself
Sep 30 16:09:09 ryan oh
Sep 30 16:09:13 kwadronaut i already added it to the wiki
Sep 30 16:09:20 ryan could you approach an IMC that uses it?
Sep 30 16:09:28 ryan and try to find someone to evaluate it?
Sep 30 16:09:38 kwadronaut i'll write e-mail to collectives that use it, thanks for the idea
Sep 30 16:09:43 * ana , lurking from uk, thinks link to that wiki would be good for the log
Sep 30 16:09:45 kwadronaut <end>
Sep 30 16:10:07 Gb excused but with this speed and my English, I do not succeed to understand and not to take part
Sep 30 16:10:13 ryan http://techmeet.sarava.org/English/CMSSurveyList
Sep 30 16:10:31 ryan Gb -- :/
Sep 30 16:10:43 ryan could be we try to run multi-lingual meetings like once a month...
Sep 30 16:10:51 ryan english meetings the other weeks
Sep 30 16:11:06 Gb is my problem :)))
Sep 30 16:11:16 Gb sorry
Sep 30 16:11:19 Zapata is OUR problem!
Sep 30 16:11:25 ana what language is your first Gb ?
Sep 30 16:11:31 Gb it
Sep 30 16:11:39 * kwadronaut wouldnt mind giving a translating hand to french or dutch. but italian.... is not possible for me
Sep 30 16:11:50 ryan actually, i have been meaning to recruit blicero
Sep 30 16:11:55 ryan for this project
Sep 30 16:11:58 * ana could do spanish, italian not an option either
Sep 30 16:11:59 ryan i'll put that on my todo list
Sep 30 16:12:06 ryan he could translate to italian
Sep 30 16:12:14 ryan there is a big developer base in italy that we are losing by not outreaching to them
Sep 30 16:12:50 * toya back
Sep 30 16:12:51 * jebba notes autistici is doing lots of work....
Sep 30 16:12:51 ^anti-^ ryan, I'll traslate to italian
Sep 30 16:13:08 ana i'll put on my to do list to summarise previous #cms meetings and translate summary to spanish...
Sep 30 16:13:31 ryan ana: cool
Sep 30 16:13:44 kwadronaut great ^anti-^
Sep 30 16:13:44 Gb thank ^anti-^
Sep 30 16:14:06 ryan alright, so next meeting?
Sep 30 16:14:18 ryan oh wait wait
Sep 30 16:14:20 toya i will try to bring the brazukas
Sep 30 16:14:26 ryan can someone throw in the URL for meeting summaries on the wiki?
Sep 30 16:14:35 ryan i cant find it right now for some reason
Sep 30 16:14:42 ryan to direct translators to this page?
Sep 30 16:14:43 ana there is no summaries url
Sep 30 16:14:47 ryan !!!!
Sep 30 16:14:50 ryan we need one!!
Sep 30 16:14:50 ana because there are no summaries done yet...
Sep 30 16:14:53 ryan !!
Sep 30 16:14:59 ryan :O :O :O :O
Sep 30 16:15:02 ryan ok ok
Sep 30 16:15:06 ryan i'm gonna make one
Sep 30 16:15:08 * ana thinks
Sep 30 16:15:11 ryan i dont even have a wiki account yet :)
Sep 30 16:15:16 toya omg
Sep 30 16:15:19 ana me neither
Sep 30 16:15:19 ryan shhhhhh
Sep 30 16:15:31 ana i have for indymedia wiki not the new one
Sep 30 16:15:48 toya ppl can do it themselves
Sep 30 16:15:51 toya make the account
Sep 30 16:16:01 ryan we will make it!!!
Sep 30 16:16:02 ryan dont worry!!
Sep 30 16:16:09 ryan ok i'm gonna set up a summaries page
Sep 30 16:16:11 kwadronaut ana: http://techmeet.sarava.org/English/CMS20060930MeetingSummary is a summary url
Sep 30 16:16:13 ryan and then email it to you all
Sep 30 16:16:22 ryan (and i will link to the existing summary from the first mtg)
Sep 30 16:16:27 ryan ok
Sep 30 16:16:30 ryan next meeting?
Sep 30 16:16:30 ana ah ok thanks - i was told there were no summaries
Sep 30 16:17:22 ryan hmmm well if no one has ideas, i think i have a preference
Sep 30 16:17:28 Zapata tell us!
Sep 30 16:17:34 ryan well i'm not sure what it is yet
Sep 30 16:17:46 kwadronaut shall we shift times a bit?
Sep 30 16:17:48 dannyp that's deep.
Sep 30 16:17:48 ryan but next weekend is crasy for me
Sep 30 16:17:55 ryan shut up dannyp :D
Sep 30 16:18:05 toya lol
Sep 30 16:18:29 ryan hm
Sep 30 16:18:49 ryan i prefer sunday mornings
Sep 30 16:18:57 toya your morning?
Sep 30 16:19:01 ryan let me get out the old timeanddate.com meeting planner...
Sep 30 16:19:01 Zapata what time?
Sep 30 16:19:08 ryan single best invention ever created for indymedia
Sep 30 16:19:11 Zapata you're utc - 7
Sep 30 16:19:23 ryan http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meeting.html
Sep 30 16:19:25 ryan I KNOW I AM
Sep 30 16:19:32 toya what time
Sep 30 16:19:38 ryan i prefer 10AM sunday
Sep 30 16:19:45 ryan easy like sunday morning
Sep 30 16:19:55 Zapata fine for me...
Sep 30 16:20:06 dannyp 1000 GMT?
Sep 30 16:20:16 dannyp that's a bit early over here
Sep 30 16:20:22 ryan this is october 8
Sep 30 16:20:25 ryan no no
Sep 30 16:20:27 ryan 1000 gmt-7
Sep 30 16:20:29 toya i dont know my schedule for next sunday..i will be travelling but i think i could do it ..
Sep 30 16:20:30 Zapata 1700
Sep 30 16:20:33 Zapata 1700 utc
Sep 30 16:20:35 dannyp ah
Sep 30 16:21:00 Zapata 7 pm amsterdam, paris, berlin 6 pm london
Sep 30 16:21:07 kwadronaut cool for me, not cool for oceania ;-)
Sep 30 16:21:21 dannyp does saturday work?
Sep 30 16:21:24 kwadronaut altough because of elections, don't count on me
Sep 30 16:21:40 shensche er.. 5am... well, now it is 4.30am :)
Sep 30 16:21:41 toya i think is 14pm for brasil
Sep 30 16:21:42 Zapata saturday is hard for europeans that have a life
Sep 30 16:21:56 Zapata (which btw doesn't include me, but that's another story)
Sep 30 16:22:10 toya hehee
Sep 30 16:22:14 Zapata ;-)
Sep 30 16:22:16 toya nerd
Sep 30 16:22:16 toya :P
Sep 30 16:22:22 Zapata look who's talking :-p
Sep 30 16:22:44 dannyp my house serves and has lunch with a group of homeless people that live near a closed down shelter (thanks to the mayor) on sundays, so sunday is a bit hard for me - but I can make it work, if I must
Sep 30 16:22:47 kwadronaut shensche: so its better for you?
Sep 30 16:23:00 ryan well i'm skipping CHURCH to come to these sunday morning meetings
Sep 30 16:23:07 ryan you lot of unwashed heathens
Sep 30 16:23:20 ryan mmmm!! the church should have free wireless
Sep 30 16:23:21 ryan during mass
Sep 30 16:23:27 toya hehehehehe
Sep 30 16:23:28 toya lol
Sep 30 16:23:29 ryan i will suggest this
Sep 30 16:23:32 shensche nah, does not matter. do not count me in, i won't have much to add anyway :)
Sep 30 16:23:49 kwadronaut can we decide on a time before being dragged away by other stuff?
Sep 30 16:23:54 ryan its decided
Sep 30 16:23:55 Zapata we won't find a perfect time for everyone
Sep 30 16:23:55 ryan 1700 UTC
Sep 30 16:23:58 ryan objections?
Sep 30 16:23:59 ryan 1...
Sep 30 16:24:02 ryan 2...
Sep 30 16:24:05 toya lol
Sep 30 16:24:11 ryan 3!!!!
Sep 30 16:24:15 Zapata 4
Sep 30 16:24:16 Zapata 5
Sep 30 16:24:21 Zapata 5883695
Sep 30 16:24:23 Zapata 5883696
Sep 30 16:24:25 dannyp I assume casual discussion will continue here post-meeting
Sep 30 16:24:29 Zapata final!
Sep 30 16:24:34 ryan dannyp: yeah its casual time!!!!!
Sep 30 16:24:39 * ryan flips on the disco ball
Sep 30 16:24:42 * ryan puts on the mood music
Sep 30 16:24:49 toya ok
Sep 30 16:24:52 toya ppl
Sep 30 16:24:54 * Zapata gets into his casual outfit
Sep 30 16:25:31 Zapata 1700 UTC
Sep 30 16:25:36 toya i probably wont be able to do it
Sep 30 16:25:42 ryan !!!!!!!!
Sep 30 16:25:45 shensche sweet, c ya mates.
Sep 30 16:25:45 Zapata october 8th
Sep 30 16:25:46 ryan i *said* 1.. 2.. 3!
Sep 30 16:26:20 ryan toya - is there a time next sunday you could make it?
Sep 30 16:26:42 dannyp so I'm curious about user-level features in indymedias (accounts and the like)
Sep 30 16:26:43 toya hmm
Sep 30 16:26:48 toya if it is a little bit later
Sep 30 16:26:51 toya really
Sep 30 16:26:53 toya dont count with me
Sep 30 16:26:54 toya on sunday
Sep 30 16:26:59 Zapata a little bit later?
Sep 30 16:27:00 ryan oh oh
Sep 30 16:27:02 Zapata like how much?
Sep 30 16:27:04 ryan toya - saturday is better?
Sep 30 16:27:11 magduv bye all
Sep 30 16:27:19 ryan i am ok with saturday
Sep 30 16:27:22 toya nah next weekend is insane
Sep 30 16:27:28 dannyp and whether people feel like they can be implemented from a security (legal) perspective
Sep 30 16:27:48 * kwadronaut agrees with toya on next weekend being insane
Sep 30 16:27:53 ryan dannyp: i think we need to develop 1) a good internal analysis on that and 2) an easy way to convey it to users
Sep 30 16:27:57 ryan but we gotta have user accounts
Sep 30 16:28:14 Zapata so...
Sep 30 16:28:16 Zapata toya/ryan
Sep 30 16:28:21 Zapata the time of next meeting stands?
Sep 30 16:28:39 * Zapata has changed the topic to: next CMS meeting NOW in #cms | Please Read: http://techmeet.sarava.org/English/Notes | http://cats.revolt.org/cats-vii/indymedia/ | http://techmeet.sarava.org/English/CMSProposal
Sep 30 16:28:40 dannyp ryan: what's the desire for that? we must still allow anonymous usage and contributions, per the draft PoU
Sep 30 16:28:54 * Zapata has changed the topic to: next CMS meeting october 8th 1700 UTC in #cms | Please Read: http://techmeet.sarava.org/English/Notes | http://cats.revolt.org/cats-vii/indymedia/ | http://techmeet.sarava.org/English/CMSProposal
Sep 30 16:29:11 dannyp is it on trying to build a community?
Sep 30 16:29:27 ryan yes
Sep 30 16:29:32 toya hey it will be hard for me the whole weekend.thinking of it..so dont count with me :/
Sep 30 16:29:34 ryan and identity protection, for people who want it
Sep 30 16:29:49 ryan and to help improve quality of articles
Sep 30 16:29:59 ryan because you can have "trusted users"
Sep 30 16:30:04 ryan and personalized trusted users
Sep 30 16:30:04 boud dannyp - user accounts will be *optional*
Sep 30 16:30:21 ryan so users can trust each other and customize their newswires based on those priorities
Sep 30 16:32:50 ryan well
Sep 30 16:32:51 ryan that was fun
Sep 30 16:38:13 dannyp sorry, wandered away (to the bathroom)
Sep 30 16:39:52 dannyp so I'm really not certain how I feel about this, because I feel like there needs to be a way that anonymous articles don't just fall off the face of the earth, even if they're good
Sep 30 16:41:12 dannyp but perhaps I'm just playing devil's advocate here
Sep 30 16:42:31 dannyp also, I really loathe captchas
Sep 30 16:42:54 Zapata it's a matter of what you like more, captchas or link spammers
Sep 30 16:44:08 dannyp well captchas don't work, and the beginnings of the captcha-beating industry are already developing
Sep 30 16:44:24 dannyp granted, they may have offered some relief now, but at what cost?
Sep 30 16:46:43 dannyp if you can get good feedback on comments somehow, one could use bayesian analysis to automatically divert suspicious comments to a queue to be reviewed...
Sep 30 16:50:07 dannyp having more administration be inline would also make it easier for collectives to do the actual task, and closing stories to new comments at a certain age would reduce the number of potential places for spammers to target
Sep 30 16:52:30 dannyp these solutions will also make it easier to deal with right-wing trolls and the like, who will not be deterred by captchas
Sep 30 16:58:42 ryan listen, listen
Sep 30 16:58:44 ryan captchas work
Sep 30 16:58:52 ryan i work with criminal internet scumbags
Sep 30 16:58:58 ryan i've lived with criminal internet scumbags
Sep 30 16:59:00 ryan they hate captchas
Sep 30 16:59:06 ryan and it has effectively stopped the spam attack
Sep 30 16:59:57 dannyp they have also, in most cases, effectivelly stopped visually impaired users
Sep 30 17:00:18 boud ouch :(
Sep 30 17:00:56 dannyp they are not the only solution for dealing with spam, nor are they a permanent solution - there are already reports of companies in economically oppressed portions of the global south using human labor to solve captchas
Sep 30 17:01:07 kwadronaut dannyp: i forgot, which imc are you from? I just doubt that it *is* adapted to visually impaired people, so i would like to test or try that out.
Sep 30 17:01:13 ryan dannyp: oh come on
Sep 30 17:01:22 ryan thats the only argument against captcha's
Sep 30 17:01:40 ryan i believe in blind publishers
Sep 30 17:01:48 ryan i believe they can find a friend or something to help them with the captcha
Sep 30 17:01:55 ryan blind indymedia publishers are a resourceful group!!!!
Sep 30 17:01:57 ryan they can problem solve
Sep 30 17:02:20 dannyp kwadronaut: pittsburgh, and it could be better, you're right. but it's functional in lynx
Sep 30 17:10:11 dannyp it's just that there are solutions that are better... solutions that deal with right-wing trolls as well as bots... if linkspam is all you want to defeat, just strip URLs out of untrusted comments. Or replace them with a tinyURL-like alias on the IMC until they can be approved/rejected
Sep 30 17:11:10 dannyp perhaps only put URLs that aren't to somewhere inside the indymedia.org domain through that treatment
Sep 30 17:12:13 kwadronaut dannyp: that last suggestion isnt a good one, trolls like to point to their hidden things andso
Sep 30 17:12:31 dannyp kwadronaut: hmm?
Sep 30 17:12:37 dannyp oh, yes
Sep 30 17:12:47 dannyp the URL comment was for dealing with linkspam, not trolls
Sep 30 17:13:13 dannyp trolls are best dealt with with 1. easier hiding of comments (inline administration), and possibly 2. bayesian analysis
Sep 30 17:13:21 dannyp CAPTCHAs don't even begin to address trolls
Sep 30 17:13:28 kwadronaut it's not any easy struggle, prolly need to compromise anyway
Sep 30 17:13:41 kwadronaut that is the struggle against unwanted content in geral
Sep 30 17:13:57 kwadronaut (trolls + linkspammers)
Sep 30 17:14:08 kwadronaut some trolls are spammers though ;-)
Sep 30 17:14:35 dannyp but I feel there are technical options - many of which haven't been explored well - that help deal with both trolls+linkspam, and that CAPTCHAs are an easy way out of half of the problem, that create a whole new set of difficulties
Sep 30 17:14:51 dannyp in that it's a step back for accessibility
Sep 30 17:15:15 dannyp and captchas aren't even a long-term solution for linkspam
Sep 30 17:22:23 txopi thay are captchas not based on images that are very good
Sep 30 17:22:32 txopi text /human based ones
Sep 30 17:22:44 txopi and they are good in terms of accessibility
Sep 30 17:23:47 txopi the meeting is end?
Sep 30 17:23:58 dannyp yes, the meeting ended awhile ago. we're just talking now
Sep 30 17:24:04 txopi ok
Sep 30 17:24:18 dannyp text captchas are better. but they too will be easily overcome in time, especially by the anti-captcha industry
Sep 30 17:24:35 txopi i don't think so
Sep 30 17:25:08 dannyp the reality is, for as long as corporations can pay people a few cents an hour to solve pages full of captchas at a time, that captchas won't be an acceptable solution
Sep 30 17:25:21 txopi "wrety ni txet vife pals vife" -> ten
Sep 30 17:25:37 txopi "wrety ni txet vife puls vife" -> ten
Sep 30 17:25:38 dannyp and I'm all for overthrowing global capitalism such that nobody feels like selling their labor for so little is worthwhile, but we're not there yet
Sep 30 17:26:55 dannyp god, it took me about 2 minutes to understand what that meant, txopi
Sep 30 17:27:04 Zapata but... dannyp
Sep 30 17:27:04 Zapata if they have to pay people a few cents an hour
Sep 30 17:27:04 Zapata that constitutes a barrier...
Sep 30 17:27:13 txopi :-D
Sep 30 17:27:53 dannyp yes, that's true. but it's not foolproof, and the industry is growing, and I don't think we're far from seeing more and more linkspammers willing to pay that
Sep 30 17:28:53 txopi "Does the human mind raed wrods as. a wlohe?"
Sep 30 17:30:02 txopi the system used by akismet and spam-karma (in wordpress) is very efective too
Sep 30 17:31:39 txopi i agree there is a war between spammers and people that want to avoid it, but i think corporations don't have a easy way at all
Sep 30 17:32:02 * dannyp notes that soundex('write') = soundex('wrety'), soundex('plus') = soundex('puls'), and the other words are simple anagrams
Sep 30 17:32:03 txopi well, is just my opinion
Sep 30 17:33:05 dannyp anyhow, my point is, don't allow CAPTCHAs to make you lazy about implementing real, long-term solutions for content regulation
Sep 30 17:33:13 dannyp and to remember that CAPTCHAs are not accessible
Sep 30 17:33:21 dannyp (many of them aren't, that is)
Sep 30 17:33:57 txopi wich word doesn't fit here? t*ble, door, planet, house, wind*w
Sep 30 17:34:18 jebba planet! :)
Sep 30 17:34:21 txopi :-)
Sep 30 17:34:27 jebba what do i win?
Sep 30 17:34:48 txopi you are the one who is going to code all the new cms for indymedia
Sep 30 17:34:50 Zapata you may now submit a posting to indymedia for free!!!!!
Sep 30 17:34:52 txopi woooow!
Sep 30 17:34:53 txopi :DDD
Sep 30 17:35:00 jebba maybe we could have a spam defeating obstacle course and see who is fastest ;)
Sep 30 17:35:14 dannyp I'm not even certain why planet doesn't fit
Sep 30 17:35:25 jebba solve captchas, audio captchas, turing tests, etc....
Sep 30 17:35:31 kwadronaut i still find it a great idea to have a *publish on all indymeidias* ;-)
Sep 30 17:35:41 kwadronaut *button
Sep 30 17:35:56 dannyp hah
Sep 30 17:36:21 dannyp well, making better use of syndication will hopefully reduce the desire of non-spammers to post to multiple IMCs...
Sep 30 17:37:02 gdm we live in a world of hope :)
Sep 30 17:37:40 dannyp ...or to put it another way, if we make better use of syndication, hopefully collectives will feel comfortable hiding things that don't belong on their local
Sep 30 17:39:00 ryan dannpy: if anything, user accounts are an increased measure against link spam
Sep 30 17:39:06 ryan dannyp: because it allows personal filtering
Sep 30 17:39:09 ryan dannyp: and trusted users
Sep 30 17:39:18 ryan dannyp: which are more sophisticated solutions to spam than captcha's are
Sep 30 17:39:33 ryan dannyp: in the meantime, i'm in favor of whatever works
Sep 30 17:39:41 ryan dannyp: and captcha's are working for us (sf-imc)
Sep 30 17:41:18 txopi do you know how akismet and spam-karma works? the idea is great and they are really effective (so you don't event need captchas)
Sep 30 17:41:29 dannyp nope, googling them now
Sep 30 17:42:02 ryan txopi: this is what i'm talking about
Sep 30 17:42:11 ryan txopi: spam protection through identity keys (via user accounts)
Sep 30 17:42:19 ryan txopi: but its interesting to see these solutions you showed us
Sep 30 17:42:27 txopi aps
Sep 30 17:42:28 txopi sorry
Sep 30 17:42:36 ryan nah nah
Sep 30 17:42:39 ryan i never heard of these before
Sep 30 17:42:40 ryan i wanna see
Sep 30 17:42:45 dannyp what's nice with slashdot's model, is that anonymous cowards can still get modded up to be seen
Sep 30 17:42:56 dannyp were it not for modding up ACs, I'd never read an AC's post...
Sep 30 17:43:22 dannyp my concern is that any identity-based solution might make it harder for anonymous contributions to be seen
Sep 30 17:43:52 ryan *shrug* lets see the implementation first
Sep 30 17:44:26 dannyp no, let's design it properly first, so those doing the implementation aren't wasting their time
Sep 30 17:44:57 jebba i think we're more in hunter gatherer mode than building mode
Sep 30 17:45:12 * ryan agrees w/jebba
Sep 30 17:46:42 dannyp fair enough. but we need to know what's worth picking up and what we should leave behind...
Sep 30 17:47:58 dannyp our constraints against IP logging make some things harder for us. It won't surprise me if this is one of the few things we'll need to roll our own for
Sep 30 17:48:18 dannyp but it's not like we'd be the first to use bayesian analysis
Sep 30 18:08:40 ryan eh, spammers use tor
Sep 30 18:12:21 txopi i think that the most effective systems to detect spam (into email, blog's comments...) analize the content
Sep 30 18:12:31 txopi not agents, ip, etc.
Sep 30 18:13:32 ryan txopi: yes i agree
Sep 30 18:18:36 dannyp as do I. bayesian analysis!